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Old May 26, 2013, 03:34 AM   #26
acearchie
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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post

One of the worst problems with digital archives is that the media becomes obsolete, You have to remain active and copy the old data to new media. If you stop then in 15 or so years it's gone.
This is why the introduction of the 'cloud' is so important.

I was talking to my Dad today about how I hope that YouTube will still be here in the future. I have 60 something videos uploaded in the last few years, many unlisted, and my friends have told me how they enjoy going back and researching past memories. I would love to be able to have a whole collection of my life in 60 years time.

I hope the same for Flickr as 1TB is certainly going to last me a long time at the current rate and I am thinking of using it as more if a way to document my life rather than pretty much just for hosting for Macrumors!
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Old May 27, 2013, 11:07 PM   #27
Razeus
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Like I said above, Aperture will build this for you with only a few clicks. Select the photos, choose the target folder and the file format and it will copy out or "export" a bunch of files.

Thetrouble is that no matter how nice your storage media is. Say you buy a new hard USB3 hard drive or even a flash drive (because you KNOW hard drives in storage have a limited live, the bearings freeze up) OK some you have four copies of your work. stored on high-end media. I 20 years someone wiil see iithis as "old computer junk" the toss in in the trash. Just exactly like I do today when I find and old floppy disk. I have no way to look at what is one it and if I did 90% are unreadable. I toss them. Your drives will get chucked out too.

One of the worst problems with digital archives is that the media becomes obsolete, You have to remain active and copy the old data to new media. If you stop then in 15 or so years it's gone.
Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but I use LR and it does the same thing. But that's not what I'm looking for. I"m not sure why you (and others, since I hear this all the time) you think media becomes obsolete. Hard drives have been used since I started using computers in the mid-90's. Only the capacity is different. And jpeg/tiff aren't going anywhere. Obsolete is an illusion and is not an issue I'm worried about.
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Old May 27, 2013, 11:18 PM   #28
flynz4
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but I use LR and it does the same thing. But that's not what I'm looking for. I"m not sure why you (and others, since I hear this all the time) you think media becomes obsolete. Hard drives have been used since I started using computers in the mid-90's. Only the capacity is different. And jpeg/tiff aren't going anywhere. Obsolete is an illusion and is not an issue I'm worried about.
You may want to check the bolded section above. Since the mid 90's... there has probably been:

IDE
SCSI
PATA
SATA 1, 2 & 3
SAS 1, 2, & 3

Every one has had a different physical interface... and often there is a series of different and incompatible protocol software stacks.

And the industry is in the middle of a major transition to replace SAS & SATA with Direct Attached PCI Expess drives (albeit... mostly for SSDs). Even then... PCIe will have dual flavors... with NVM Express replacing SATA and SCSI Express replacing SAS.

Your very best bet at archiving digital information is to "keep it live"... and continually move it forward to new media. Of course... every step should be at least double backed up.

/Jim
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Old May 27, 2013, 11:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
...Hard drives have been used since I started using computers in the mid-90's. Only the capacity is different. And jpeg/tiff aren't going anywhere. Obsolete is an illusion and is not an issue I'm worried about.
I'm going to quibble here. I've seen many media come and go. And I'm not sure that HDDs that I started using 10 years ago will even work with today's computers. Plugs change. All sorts of things change. And I've seen a couple of industry standard, widely adopted, file formats disappear too. So, no... Obsolete is not an illusion.

That said, if you are keeping your images on HDDs then you can keep them from becoming obsolete simply by copying them over to new(er) HDDs on a regular basis. If a file format has become obsolete, there will be a script or automator action that will convert the old format to the new one. You will need to actively maintain that archive. But - it is doable, of course.

The danger is that individual bits go bad... get flipped. One wrong bit in the wrong place can render an entire photo unusable. Luckily today's file systems are more robust than the days of DOS when one bad bit could render the entire disk useless.

However, all you have to do is maintain your archive - keeping it current to the standards of the day.
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Old May 28, 2013, 12:31 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Razeus View Post
Perhaps you haven't read the thread, but I use LR and it does the same thing. But that's not what I'm looking for. I"m not sure why you (and others, since I hear this all the time) you think media becomes obsolete. Hard drives have been used since I started using computers in the mid-90's. Only the capacity is different. And jpeg/tiff aren't going anywhere. Obsolete is an illusion and is not an issue I'm worried about.
I think the point he raised is important, valid and easily overlooked: I do understand your desire that your most important work should be as easily accessible as possible. Being able to store and access media means you need to have two things in order: a storage method and an access method. This is no different from storing negatives or slides. In the world of computers, this is done by hard- and software. flynz4's post concerns the software side while your proposal focusses on the software side.

He's entirely correct to point out that you can no longer plug in your external SCSI hard drive or your PATA hard drive in a current computer without some extra effort. A significant share of my CD-Rs and DVD-Rs (which I used as a backup medium 10 years ago) contains unreadable files, and I no longer have a built-in optical drive (by choice, I exchanged it for an SSD). Fast-forward 20 years and I don't think people know what to do with my FireWire or USB hard drives. Of course, we solve this by periodically moving data to newer hard drives when we get them, but there needs to be a strategy.
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Originally Posted by ApfelKuchen View Post
When it comes to legacies, heirs really don't like to figure things out - they're sorting through piles and piles of stuff - "Donate this? Try to sell it to a resale shop? Call in an appraiser and hold an auction?" This is why guests on Antiques Roadshow can come up with such great dumpster finds. Most heirs just don't know what's valuable, or are too exhausted by the process to care.

Sure, there might be another family member (or art historian) who might want to curate the legacy and would like to have the entire Lightroom or Aperture package. The chances of either? Pretty slim.
Honestly, I think you guys are way too optimistic, thinking anyone cares about your most-valued photographs. When my grandmother moved into a nursing home, she gave away a large share of her possessions. Most people cared about pieces of furniture, and only I wanted to have her old photo albums. Honestly, when I die, I don't expect someone to go through my hard drive and peruse it for interesting or useful data. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist.

If I wanted to maximize the chances that the photos are found, I'd (1) use the most common format (jpg) and (2) leave specific instructions. If you don't, you may as well bury your files in a Lightroom/Aperture library. Almost nobody knows the difference between tif and jpg, and those people who do are the ones who likely have no more or less of a problem to navigate folders or a Lightroom catalog. I also don't expect my relatives to go through my collection of negatives.

My strategy concerning my work is different: I have given it away as presents, framed large prints. I'm also trying to make photo books.
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Old Jun 2, 2013, 09:07 PM   #31
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... Hard drives have been used since I started using computers in the mid-90's. Only the capacity is different.
I onece kept my computer data on 10 inch reel to reel tape. It had beed the "standard" for decades. I had a few thousand punched cards too. So far cards have lasted the longest. They were invented in about 1900 by IBM and used up until the mid 1970s Over 1/2 a century. No other media has ever lasted that long

You started in the 1990s. Like that was a long time ago, you think. I remember computers in the 1970's Hard drives have changed over the years. Back in 1972 they looked like washing machines with a top loading lid. The first drive I owned myself, inside my IBM PC used an interface type that is LONG gone., later came parallel IDE drives, SCSI drives of many different types and now SATA. I suspect that in 10 years there will be no more rotating drives and they will all be Flash.

Flash that is made to look like a SATA drive is a transitional thing that you can buy now. But it is a dumb design. Only good for retrofitting computers designed for SATA drives. Already Apple is bypassing the SATA controller and soldering the Flash to the logic board to make it even faster, smaller and cheaper.

In 10 years most computers will not use disks and 15 you will not find any on the market.

Also if you try and store a drive it will fail. The bearings freeze up if not used, shock breaks them and the warenty expires after 3 or so years.

The way to store data "forever" is on-line in some kind of cloud storage. Or an on-line photo album like Flickr or Facebook. But the "standard" disk drive is not going to last. It will be gone like floppy drives and reel to reel tape.

Or you can simply use paper. Print out a book.

Prints are archival paper is the best
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Old Jun 3, 2013, 08:55 AM   #32
Razeus
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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
I onece kept my computer data on 10 inch reel to reel tape. It had beed the "standard" for decades. I had a few thousand punched cards too. So far cards have lasted the longest. They were invented in about 1900 by IBM and used up until the mid 1970s Over 1/2 a century. No other media has ever lasted that long

You started in the 1990s. Like that was a long time ago, you think. I remember computers in the 1970's Hard drives have changed over the years. Back in 1972 they looked like washing machines with a top loading lid. The first drive I owned myself, inside my IBM PC used an interface type that is LONG gone., later came parallel IDE drives, SCSI drives of many different types and now SATA. I suspect that in 10 years there will be no more rotating drives and they will all be Flash.

Flash that is made to look like a SATA drive is a transitional thing that you can buy now. But it is a dumb design. Only good for retrofitting computers designed for SATA drives. Already Apple is bypassing the SATA controller and soldering the Flash to the logic board to make it even faster, smaller and cheaper.

In 10 years most computers will not use disks and 15 you will not find any on the market.

Also if you try and store a drive it will fail. The bearings freeze up if not used, shock breaks them and the warenty expires after 3 or so years.

The way to store data "forever" is on-line in some kind of cloud storage. Or an on-line photo album like Flickr or Facebook. But the "standard" disk drive is not going to last. It will be gone like floppy drives and reel to reel tape.

Or you can simply use paper. Print out a book.

Prints are archival paper is the best
Yes, but I think I'll have plenty of time to change over. You guys make it seem like people would be stuck if they don't copy their data every year. Even though the interfaces have changed, hard drives are still hard drives.
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Old Jun 3, 2013, 06:20 PM   #33
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Yes, but I think I'll have plenty of time to change over. You guys make it seem like people would be stuck if they don't copy their data every year. Even though the interfaces have changed, hard drives are still hard drives.
Have at it. Every few years, the interface to HDDs change... and you cannot plug old HDDs into new computers.

This is especially true now... as we are in the midst of a major change to physical storage. In a few years, SATA physical interface will have been forgotten.

My recommendation remains. Keep your data live... keep your data backed up... and keep moving data forward to new technologies as they change.

/Jim
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