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Old Jun 24, 2014, 05:19 AM   #176
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So do you think that most European conservative voters even knew who he actually was before putting a tick in the box?

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That's because Cameron is a weak leader who has no control over his parties more anti-Europe elements. It's a bit like the republicans and the tea party.
I would say in mainland Europe most voters understood how the system was going to work.

The UK conservatives had already left for the fringe in 2009.
The British Conservatives left the main Center Right Group in the EU parliament in 2009
Tories leaving Europe's EPP group
David Cameron was today accused of adopting a "dotty" approach to the EU after his decision to withdraw from the main centre-right grouping in the European parliament.

There is a small fight back by some UK conservatives.

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/uk-...es-ukip-301715

This time the EU bus is moving with or without the UK.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 05:24 AM   #177
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I would say in mainland Europe most voters understood how the system was going to work.
So given you haven't answered the question I presume that you are accepting that the majority of European conservative voters hadn't even heard of Junker before the election.

And I presume also that neither the socialist leader or the conservative leaders went on a tour of even the major European capitals (even if Junker skipped the UK as the UK conservative party is in another grouping).

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The UK conservatives had already left for the fringe in 2009.
But Labour is still in the socialist group, and the socialist leader didn't come here either, which is still pathetic.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 05:25 AM   #178
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So when exactly in the campaign did he visit the UK? Or France? Or Spain? Or Italy?
looking after the election isn't that easy but i found this:
http://www.pes.eu/martin_schulz_prog..._campaign_tour

looks like he visited 24 countries... the UK being the biggest exception so i think Labour didn't want him to appear.

His nomination was declared at a S&D meeting in Rome and he launched his campaign in Paris.

Juncker had also a europe wide campaign and started obviously in Brussels

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Because David Cameron, just like Angela Merkel and FranÁois Hollande, won an election where people actually knew who they were voting for.
10 million in a UK election isn't enough to lead a 500 million EU.


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It's much worse than our democracy as at least we know who the candidates are.
I've never even heard of the guy.
the Economist not doing a great job then isn't it ? After all Juncker was head of the Euro Zone for quite some years.

Schulz was head of the european parliament for years as well.



Looks like the rubbish UK press is too controlled by US(?) business corperations where stalking candidates wifes and children is considered normal and seperation of opinion pieces and actual facts unheard of.

seriously i was just gooling for english articles about cameron & juncker and found UK articles barely 20 hours old where they state "Cameron gaining support against Juncker " while in reality he going into the council completly isolated.
For example did the UK press really think that italian PM Renzi actually would support a Cameron candidate and fall his own S&D MEPs in the back ? Renzi played the media game to get perhaps more time for their austerity reforms from the conservative Juncker in the future.
And he succeded looking like a statesman agreeing on a compromise while Cameron ends up looking like a kid on the school yard stomping his feet.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 05:42 AM   #179
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looking after the election isn't that easy but i found this:
http://www.pes.eu/martin_schulz_prog..._campaign_tour

looks like he visited 24 countries... the UK being the biggest exception so i think Labour didn't want him to appear.
And how widely publicised were these events in the countries he did appear in?

This is a "cross European" candidate who doesn't even have a website in English or French.

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10 million in a UK election isn't enough to lead a 500 million EU.
Of course not, and neither is 10 million votes in Germany or France.

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the Economist not doing a great job then isn't it ? After all Juncker was head of the Euro Zone for quite some years.

Schulz was head of the european parliament for years as well.
I'm sure they were in charge of stuff before, but they had no profile.

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Looks like the rubbish UK press is too controlled by US(?) business corperations
The BBC and Guardian are both independent, and while obviously they covered the European elections they didn't really cover these leaders.

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seriously i was just gooling for english articles about cameron & juncker and found UK articles barely 20 hours old where they state "Cameron gaining support against Juncker " while in reality he going into the council completly isolated.
That's not the BBC's overall summary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-27989740.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 05:44 AM   #180
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So given you haven't answered the question I presume that you are accepting that the majority of European conservative voters hadn't even heard of Junker before the election.

And I presume also that neither the socialist leader or the conservative leaders went on a tour of even the major European capitals (even if Junker skipped the UK as the UK conservative party is in another grouping).



But Labour is still in the socialist group, and the socialist leader didn't come here either, which is still pathetic.
Jean Claude Junker was head of the Euro group at the hight of the Euro crisis, he was daily on every TV news channel.

So yes most people who have an interest in the EU know who he is.

From his own web site.


http://juncker.epp.eu

But I have this feeling you are very much like all people in the UK, if god and all his angels said that they knew who Jean Claude Junker was, the Uk would still stamp it's feet like a spoilt child and scream NO. (We only know Becks and Posh)

Like I said I cannot wait for 2017.

I do hope the the election of JC Junker, brings the referendum forward, so we can put a full stop to these childish antics.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 11:02 AM   #181
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(...)
I spoke to one of my German friends about this yesterday and she hadn't heard of these guys either.
I guess, if he/she is not working from 8pm to 0pm in the night, it is quite hard to not notice Juncker and Schulz. The discussions were on the two main state TV channels. Both having the two news formats (Tagesschau and Heute Journal) that are the most watched in Germany and even people in austria watch it (ZDF has a swiss and austrian weather report that is send, if you switch to ZDF in austria and switzerland), the news aid daily and at the day of the discussion, right before the discussion started (both with Juncker and Schulz).
ZDF also had a second more fun oriented evening with EU candidates (Schulz among them) where they had to answer questions, plus take part in plays to show their social abilities and character.

If, your friend does not work in the evening, then he/she might not be interested in culture, so he/she missed arte (wich is a french/german cooperation channel, that had a discussion with all 5 candidates) or 3sat (german/swiss/austrian), which had an austrian documentary and other stuff and he/might not be interested in politics and daily news (since you would have at least heard a few words about them on ARD/ZDF). That leaves this person with the "what we call "under-class" or "precariat" TV channels, were you have daily soaps (with amateur actors) and game shows (RTL, SAT.1,...). I bet Pro7 (another of the private entertainment channels, but it also shows high quality US-comedy series) did an election episode in their fampous "TV Total - Stefan Raab Show".
If not a private TV watcher and clichee under-class person, then your friend must be in the very high income class, that take a pooh on society and really don't know, what is going on in the world, but they know, what shoes are en vogue at the moment and that you have to pay 1000,-EUR for it, because otherwise it si of course no good stuff.

I am being polemic, sorry. But in Germany it is hard to miss Schulz and Jucker, if you watch the daily news (8am, 1pm, 5pm, 8pm, 10pm, pm and that is only the ARD news, ZDF is in between these times).
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And how widely publicised were these events in the countries he did appear in?(...)
Events not so much, but as I said, all over the news and even in prime time discussion shows.

I forgot to mention the news and documentary channel phoenix in Germany (they even show discussions in the German parliament) and the niche channel Euronews (they had 4 candidates. The greek socialist candidate refused to take part).
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 11:36 AM   #182
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You cannot say they didn’t try to get through to the voters.

The First European Presidential Debate will take place on Monday 28th April in Maastricht. The debate, hosted by the City of Maastricht, Maastricht University, Connect Limburg and the European Youth Forum, will see the candidates for the presidency of the European Commission battle out key issues on the future of Europe. The debate will be held in front of an audience of 700 young people and broadcast live worldwide in 13 languages on Euronews.

The candidates, Jean-Claude Juncker (European People’s Party), Martin Schulz (Party of European Socialists), Guy Verhofstadt (Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Party) and Ska Keller (European Green Party) will answer questions from thousands of young people all over Europe. The candidates will then debate key issues such as unemployment, education and young people’s engagement in politics.

The debate, officially known as “The First European Presidential Debate”, is being organised by Maastricht University, the City of Maastricht, Connect Limburg, the European Youth Forum, and with Euronews as the main media partner. Given the European nature of both the city and the university, Maastricht is the logical place to hold this very first EU Presidential debate. The theatre audience will be made up of international students, youth civil society, and young people from across Europe. The debate will focus on the issues that matter most to young Europeans; the questions will be gathered using a unique participatory process through collaboration between the University of Maastricht and the European Youth Forum/League of Young Voters.

Moderated by Euronews lead presenter Isabelle Kumar, the debate will be available live through Euronews’ worldwide TV network (covering 415 million homes in 156 countries), simultaneously in 13 languages: Arabic, English, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Persian, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, Turkish and Ukrainian. The debate will also be streamed live on this website, as well as on euronews.com and on Euronews’ mobile apps.

http://www.eudebate2014.eu
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Old Jun 26, 2014, 03:04 AM   #183
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looks like the swedish and dutch PM moved away from their reservations against Juncker as well before the council meeting. Leaving only Cameron and Orban in opposition.
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Old Jun 26, 2014, 05:26 AM   #184
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looks like the swedish and dutch PM moved away from their reservations against Juncker as well before the council meeting. Leaving only Cameron and Orban in opposition.
O yes this was confirmed yesterday, but it was an open secret, after Mark Rutte met with David Cameron, he found that all David Cameron was interested in was not reform, but getting his own way, and nothing else.
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Old Jun 27, 2014, 09:44 AM   #185
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Jean-Claude Junker is going to be EU President.


What's your next move David.
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Old Jun 27, 2014, 05:13 PM   #186
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I like that picture
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Old Jun 27, 2014, 05:53 PM   #187
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I like that picture
The problem is that Cameron is actually right and on this issue he reflects the mood of the people of Europe more than the other politicians.

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Jean Claude Junker was head of the Euro group at the hight of the Euro crisis, he was daily on every TV news channel.

So yes most people who have an interest in the EU know who he is.

From his own web site.


http://juncker.epp.eu

But I have this feeling you are very much like all people in the UK, if god and all his angels said that they knew who Jean Claude Junker was, the Uk would still stamp it's feet like a spoilt child and scream NO. (We only know Becks and Posh)

Like I said I cannot wait for 2017.

I do hope the the election of JC Junker, brings the referendum forward, so we can put a full stop to these childish antics.
It is quite clear that the EPP website is only aimed at the European political elite. They can't even be bothered to translate it into the EU's major languages.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 07:30 AM   #188
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The problem is that Cameron is actually right and on this issue he reflects the mood of the people of Europe more than the other politicians.
You mean by saying that neither Juncker nor Schulz were elected democrtically? It depends on how strict you are in interpreting democracy. If it is that all choices have to be made by the poeple, then you can't have a parliament and would need a referendum for everything (like in Switzerland) and the gov. will only be a small group that carries out the will of the referendum. If you see it that way, that people elect "spokesmen" for themsleves that meet their own opinions the best as it is possible under such circumstances, you get the main candidates of the parties that got the most votes. Yes, I think I understand your point there, then. One could say, that if the strongest party has only 28% of the whole, it is not a legitimate majority. Then you would have either a direct election for the president or a second election on those 2-3 guys, who had the most votes.
Then again one could argue, that those parties that are in the sane faction spectrum (S&P, EEP, Greens, Liberals, maybe socialists), makes up more majority (combined) and that they combined would agree on either Schulz or Juncker and wouldn't claim to have their candidate with only up to 10% of votes.

Also, I like the parliament choose the president, over some people, that don't even know the candidates and just go to the ballot box to show their angry and effectively vote for some nazi-guy or Beppe Grillo. What will Belgians vote, who have to go to vote (hence that 90% giving a vote)? They are pisse,d becaus etheir national government forces them to go to vote and out of angry they will vote something stupid.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 09:50 AM   #189
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You mean by saying that neither Juncker nor Schulz were elected democrtically?
Well what I was getting at was the success of the anti EU parties in a number of countries including the UK and France. I'm not really convinced that most people in Europe want to live in a European superstate.

And loads of countries had referendums which were going against the last EU treaty.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 10:10 AM   #190
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Well what I was getting at was the success of the anti EU parties in a number of countries including the UK and France. I'm not really convinced that most people in Europe want to live in a European superstate.

And loads of countries had referendums which were going against the last EU treaty.
I think that you are looking at this the wrong way, countries who are in the Euro Zone, are by definition in close integration.
If the EURO crisis taught us anything, itís that we the EURO Zone countries need more integration on financial affairs not less. There will over time have to be Europe wide tax rates, banking rates, budget ceilings set by the ECB. This is the only way that the EURO will remain a strong currency on the worlds markets.

David Cameron is always talking about reform, but just to give you one example, the UK wants to cut the Common Agriculture Policy, which the UK sees as bloated. France for all itís bluster is not out for the same reform as you, the Common Agriculture policy sees to that. The NF wouldnít and couldnít take a 60% cut farm subsidies, the sell the idea to the French public.

You see both the UK and France want reform they just want completly different reforms.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 04:56 PM   #191
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If the EURO crisis taught us anything, itís that we the EURO Zone countries need more integration on financial affairs not less.
You want European institutions to centralise yet more power? I have no objections to centralisation if the newly governing bodies actually work.

The response to the financial crisis by Eurozone institutions was laughable. The European Central Bank only recently started to take extreme measures to combat low inflation and slow growth with low (and negative) interest rates. These decisions should have been made years ago.

The Bank of England and the U.S. Federal Reserve cut interest rates sharply and quickly and expanded other monetary weapons that they had at their disposal within months of the crisis hitting. The ECB has taken years to implement the same aggressive response, potentially hindering the growth and recovery of the Eurozone for years.

The ECB is notorious for being too slow and weak in its responses to economic difficulties, and you would like it to get yet more powers that it probably won't ever use? What is the point?

European countries could have recovered much quicker if the ECB temporarily delegated all decision making to national central banks, rather than simply instructing them on what to do. One Euro-wide monetary policy does not fit all.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 07:11 PM   #192
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David Cameron is always talking about reform, but just to give you one example, the UK wants to cut the Common Agriculture Policy, which the UK sees as bloated. France for all itís bluster is not out for the same reform as you, the Common Agriculture policy sees to that. The NF wouldnít and couldnít take a 60% cut farm subsidies, the sell the idea to the French public.

Would the NF voters in France really care about farm subsidies either. I can't believe more than 1-2% of French GDP is agriculture. And the valuable stuff is the wine and cheese which would easily survive without subsidy.
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Old Jun 28, 2014, 11:12 PM   #193
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You want European institutions to centralise yet more power? I have no objections to centralisation if the newly governing bodies actually work.

The response to the financial crisis by Eurozone institutions was laughable. The European Central Bank only recently started to take extreme measures to combat low inflation and slow growth with low (and negative) interest rates. These decisions should have been made years ago.

The Bank of England and the U.S. Federal Reserve cut interest rates sharply and quickly and expanded other monetary weapons that they had at their disposal within months of the crisis hitting. The ECB has taken years to implement the same aggressive response, potentially hindering the growth and recovery of the Eurozone for years.

The ECB is notorious for being too slow and weak in its responses to economic difficulties, and you would like it to get yet more powers that it probably won't ever use? What is the point?

European countries could have recovered much quicker if the ECB temporarily delegated all decision making to national central banks, rather than simply instructing them on what to do. One Euro-wide monetary policy does not fit all.

While I will be the first to admit that the UK has recovered far faster than the EU as a whole and the Euro lands in particular, there are major reasons.
London and the SE are booming, but the further North you travel?
The banking and financial service industry of the UK has not really been overhauled since the crisis.
The Bank of England could set it’s own interest rates and control the flow of money, a very big plus.

But banking has a very big down side, it’s products are so complicated that even people in the business don’t really understand them. Derivatives being one of them, short selling and other practices, have made it a monster that now controls the political landscape of the UK.

I remember the shock and horror back in 2008 whe Royal Bank of Scotland & Santandar plus Fortis, formed a consortium to buy ABN AMRO, and found they had paid a huge price, it soon turned out it was all smoke and mirrors.

We in Europe took a different lesson from these events.



The ECB has been in the past very slow to act, this of course is the nature of the beast, when you have 28 countries in the EU, 17 in the EURO group.
Another reason why the recovery in Europe has been a lot slower than in the UK, is over all of Europe the banks have been totally rebuilt from the ground up. Bad loans have been cleared from the books, and a division between retail/commercial bank has been established. This was all put in place to stop another banking crisis like 2008. It also had to be done because the EURO had been built by politicians first, and not by bankers. These steps had to be take to give the EURO a solid foundation, but they took time.

But in EURO zone we want to rely less on a speculative market, the stock market should serve the economic needs of the EU, and not be it’s master.


We believe in Europe as a whole that both the UK/US just papered over the cracks in your financial service industries. The Anglo Saxon method of boom and bust based on the hypothetical price of property is not the way Europe wants to go. The country which in Europe was least affected by the crisis was Germany which was a manufacturing based economy.


This is of course a judgement call, and only time will tell who got it right or wrong.

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Would the NF voters in France really care about farm subsidies either. I can't believe more than 1-2% of French GDP is agriculture. And the valuable stuff is the wine and cheese which would easily survive without subsidy.



THe CAP is to France what the EU rebates are to the UK.

France threatened on Wednesday to reject a European Union budget proposal for the 2014-2020 period if it implies cuts in the bloc's agriculture spending.
A compromise proposal on the EU long-term budget by the EU's Cypriot presidency, cutting more than 50 billion euros ($64.5 billion) from the original blueprint, ran into a crossfire of criticism on Tuesday from governments on both sides of the spending debate.
'We oppose the proposed reduction to the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), which has already been the subject of significant (reduction) efforts in the original proposal of the European Commission,' French EU Affairs Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said in a statement.
French Junior Minister for European Affairs Bernard Cazeneuve says his country will oppose the budget if it cuts the CAP
'France would not support a multi-annual budget that does not maintain the funds of the Common Agricultural Policy,' he added.
France is by far the largest beneficiary of the CAP. It has been actively trying over the past months to find allies in its fight to keep the CAP stable after 2013, with its farm minister sealing deals to this effect with Germany, Spain and Italy earlier this month.
Prime Minister Cameron is under pressure on the home front to support EU budget cuts
Britain on Wednesday weighed in with a spokesman for Prime Minister David Cameron saying the country would prefer to see a real terms decrease in the EU budget.
Cameron, who is currently demanding a real terms freeze in the 2014-2020 EU budget which would see it rise in line with inflation, has come under pressure at home to accept nothing less than a real terms cut in the budget.
The EU's proposal, which should be the basis of negotiations to seek a deal on the budget at a summit of EU leaders on Nov. 22-23, recommended the deepest cuts to infrastructure spending in the poorest member states.
Spending on farm subsidies, which account for about 40 percent of the current EU budget, would only fall by about 5 billion euros under the compromise.
Direct payments to farmers would total more than 277 billion euros over seven years.
Cazeneuve said he was convinced other cuts in spending could be found to make the budget more compatible with the member states' efforts to reduce national debt.
He also indirectly repeated France's opposition to Britain's multi-billion annual budget rebate, won by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, to which France is one of the biggest contributors.
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