Texas Senator attempts 13-hour Filibuster against Abortion Bill - Page 4 - MacRumors Forums
Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jul 3, 2013, 02:05 PM   #76
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckeck View Post
We are not discussing the first trimester or a few weeks into the pregnancy. We are talking about the 20-week cutoff which is well into the second trimester when the BABY has a functioning brain, heart, nervous system, can hear and most important can feel pain.

Don't confuse the subject please.
Clarification rarely adds confusion to a subject.

Moreover, the nervous system develops significantly between 19-30 weeks. At 19 weeks, there's a functional spinal reflex, however while there are thalamic connections at 20 weeks, those projections aren't mature until 29-30 weeks.

So, it's hard to state clearly whether or not an embryo feels pain during this period of development because while the fibers are formed, the brain's ability to interpret pain may not be developed until later.

The rate for survival for a baby born at 22 weeks is 0-10 percent, but a baby born at 26 weeks is 80-90 percent, indicating that the 20 week "cut-off" may be more arbitrary than anything else.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 03:27 PM   #77
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegamanX View Post
and people backing this bill are so hung up on the 20 weeks to avoid talking about the larger issues of [effectively] closing down all clinics but 5 in the entire state and making it so costly that getting a safe abortion in the State of Texas will be impossible for large number of women.
Exactly, other states have enacted similar legislation that that has resulted in far fewer clinics for women's healthcare.

It's also worth noting that Texas already cut the funding available for family-planning by two-thirds, eliminating $73 million from the budget, resulting in the elimination of more than half of the available clinics in the state. The closure has removed care for nearly 50 percent of women who live below the poverty line.

Of course, limit in abortion providers tends to push the birthrates up, resulting in more teen pregnancies and a larger population beneath the poverty line.

And, that's the important part of this discussion. Texas won't shift that $73 million to post-natal care or childhood development, so the additional children of the state will be born poor, are more likely to have developmental or learning disabilities, and are more likely to remain that way over time.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 03:57 PM   #78
MegamanX
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Exactly, other states have enacted similar legislation that that has resulted in far fewer clinics for women's healthcare.

It's also worth noting that Texas already cut the funding available for family-planning by two-thirds, eliminating $73 million from the budget, resulting in the elimination of more than half of the available clinics in the state. The closure has removed care for nearly 50 percent of women who live below the poverty line.

Of course, limit in abortion providers tends to push the birthrates up, resulting in more teen pregnancies and a larger population beneath the poverty line.

And, that's the important part of this discussion. Texas won't shift that $73 million to post-natal care or childhood development, so the additional children of the state will be born poor, are more likely to have developmental or learning disabilities, and are more likely to remain that way over time.
What the real kicker is for proof they do not care about cutting the budget or saving money.
They were warned when they cut that funding it would cause a much greater increased on medicare (or is it caid) due to the increase births and it would push the birth rate up.

GOP is not about saving money it is about screwing everyone else over.
MegamanX is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 04:05 PM   #79
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by MegamanX View Post
What the real kicker is for proof they do not care about cutting the budget or saving money.
They were warned when they cut that funding it would cause a much greater increased on medicare (or is it caid) due to the increase births and it would push the birth rate up.

GOP is not about saving money it is about screwing everyone else over.
It's inherently myopic.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 07:58 PM   #80
renewed
macrumors 68040
 
renewed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bemalte Blumen duften nicht.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
There's very little supporting data to suggest that the death penalty has any affect on the murder rate, in fact, there's much more support to the contrary. In reality, shifts in education rates, the elimination of lead in gasoline and the legalization of abortion are much more likely candidates for the shift in murder rates in the United States.
Who is talking about the death penalty?






Quote:
.Andy has mined this line of reasoning already, but I wanted to highlight the literal disconnect. Unless god made the idolatrous infertile, when the great flood came, a certain number of pregnant women drowned along with their unborn children. And, that's not to mention the infants and toddlers who were swept up in god's apparent wrath.

Moreover, in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, a place of wild sexual activity, there must have been children. And yet, there's no mention of their sudden evacuation before the immolation of Sodom.

Lastly, the Egyptians suffer the loss of all the male "little ones" from a plague sent by god.

Square the circle. According to the literal interpretation of the Old Testament, god destroys the sinners and their "little ones."
None of us partaking in abortions are gods. Besides are women aborting out of reprimand for ill deeds?
renewed is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3, 2013, 08:28 PM   #81
jnpy!$4g3cwk
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post

There's very little supporting data to suggest that the death penalty has any affect on the murder rate, in fact, there's much more support to the contrary. In reality, shifts in education rates, the elimination of lead in gasoline and the legalization of abortion are much more likely candidates for the shift in murder rates in the United States.
Somewhat OT, but, the correlation between lead in the environment of developing children (due to paint and lead in gasoline) and the famous spikes in crime is quite remarkable. Of course, correlation is not causality, but, it isn't completely "long-chain correlation" either, as many of the intermediate links have been substantiated.





http://www.ricknevin.com/

More discussion:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/ge7/longchai...int_and_crime/

http://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker...ning_crime.pdf
jnpy!$4g3cwk is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 08:40 PM   #82
MrWillie
macrumors 65816
 
MrWillie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Down south junkin...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post

Trisomy 18, which a child would last no more than 5 - 15 days alive, with less than 10% surviving a year. This alone caused nearly 340 abortions in 2008/2009 alone.
340 out of how many abortions total ? You're talking minuscule amounts here. People aren't talking about ending pregnancies for medical emergencies. They are talking about killing children as a means of birth control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
What were babies and foetuses guilty of that required god to drown them all?
Who said because God ends your life on earth you are being punished. The children are in heaven with God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Exactly, other states have enacted similar legislation that that has resulted in far fewer clinics for women's healthcare.
Because an abortion clinic is a place to go to get quality healthcare ? Or is it just a place to go to erase a mistake ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
It's also worth noting that Texas already cut the funding available for family-planning by two-thirds, eliminating $73 million from the budget, resulting in the elimination of more than half of the available clinics in the state. The closure has removed care for nearly 50 percent of women who live below the poverty line.

Of course, limit in abortion providers tends to push the birthrates up, resulting in more teen pregnancies and a larger population beneath the poverty line.

And, that's the important part of this discussion. Texas won't shift that $73 million to post-natal care or childhood development, so the additional children of the state will be born poor, are more likely to have developmental or learning disabilities, and are more likely to remain that way over time.
So we kill them ? Hey, while we are at it let's go kill everyone that lives in trailer parks (of course I know people that are better off financially than I am that live in tps). Let's kill off all of those on public assistantance, those in prison, those that do poorly in school. That's what you're saying isn't it ?
__________________
Life's too short to deal with HP tech support. But I am considering a color laser e-printer.
MrWillie is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 08:43 PM   #83
pdjudd
macrumors 68040
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Plymouth, MN
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillie View Post
Because an abortion clinic is a place to go to get quality healthcare ? Or is it just a place to go to erase a mistake ?
I am willing to bet that clinics that provide abortions provide tons of other women's health services.
pdjudd is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 09:11 PM   #84
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by renewed View Post
Unfortunately making murder illegal hasn't stopped people from taking other's lives. It has, I'm sure, caused people to double think before committing it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by renewed View Post
Who is talking about the death penalty?
...


Quote:
...None of us partaking in abortions are gods. Besides are women aborting out of reprimand for ill deeds?
I don't know, I'm just to understand how this operates in your theology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
Somewhat OT, but, the correlation between lead in the environment of developing children (due to paint and lead in gasoline) and the famous spikes in crime is quite remarkable. Of course, correlation is not causality, but, it isn't completely "long-chain correlation" either, as many of the intermediate links have been substantiated.
It was an off-hand reference, but I'm glad you brought up the research. I find it fascinating that the Clean Air Act has been in effect, an anti-crime measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillie View Post
...Because an abortion clinic is a place to go to get quality healthcare ? Or is it just a place to go to erase a mistake ?
Abortion clinics like Planned Parenthood fulfill a role in women's health care by providing pre and post-natal care, OB/GYN exams, breast exams, etc. Abortion tends to be just a part of the overall picture.

Quote:
...So we kill them ? Hey, while we are at it let's go kill everyone that lives in trailer parks (of course I know people that are better off financially than I am that live in tps). Let's kill off all of those on public assistantance, those in prison, those that do poorly in school. That's what you're saying isn't it ?
Uh, no. But, anyone not looking to setup an easy straw man argument probably figured this out.

If the Texas legislature cared about children, it would take the $73 million cut from family planning clinics—which by the way provide for birth control and other kinds of family planning, mitigating the need for abortion—and inject that money into other programs designed to keep children out of poverty and ensuring they have adequate food and healthcare.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:01 PM   #85
steve knight
macrumors 65816
 
steve knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
it is not just abortion services that are going to suffer that's the smaller part it is the loss of all of the low income health care woman get all the health screenings they are going to loose. This in a state that has one of the lowest quality health care and the least amount of insured people. the whole fight for abortion will do far more damage in so many ways. Most of the pro lifers could care less about woman in general. they could care less if woman die from illegal abortions they only want to see it swept under the rug. They are fully unwilling to do the real things that will help stop abortions. I think a lot of the pro lifers think no one had abortions till V&W happened.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
...


If the Texas legislature cared about children, it would take the $73 million cut from family planning clinics—which by the way provide for birth control and other kinds of family planning, mitigating the need for abortion—and inject that money into other programs designed to keep children out of poverty and ensuring they have adequate food and healthcare.
Don't forget old rick perry saying even with proof that abstinence only teaching does not work saying he feels it works so that's why it is in place.
the problem is pro lifers really want this dream biblical no sex before marriage perfect marriage no unwanted pregnancy no outside marriage sex virgin till marriage. This fantasy they are trying to force on a world that has never been that way in the history of man. If they can't have that then screw everyone else.
__________________
CNCrouting.biz
steve knight is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 10:06 PM   #86
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve knight View Post
...They are fully unwilling to do the real things that will help stop abortions. I think a lot of the pro lifers think no one had abortions till V&W happened.
People struggle with this, but abortifacients were used before the classical era. The modern abortion procedure is different, but each society has maintained some rate of infanticide.

Quote:
...This fantasy they are trying to force on a world that has never been that way in the history of man. If they can't have that then screw everyone else.
I agree. It's ideological and completely impractical to expect that people aren't going to have sex. Gov. Perry and the Texas legislature engage in magical thinking.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 11:10 PM   #87
MrWillie
macrumors 65816
 
MrWillie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Down south junkin...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdjudd View Post
I am willing to bet that clinics that provide abortions provide tons of other women's health services.
A search of Texas abortion clinics found a few that do, and those would most likely be the ones remaining open. For example, Whole Women's Health. But they do stress that they are an abortion clinic. They also state that in Texas, abortions performed after the 16th week are required to be performed in their Ambulatory Surgical Center.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
...


Uh, no. But, anyone not looking to setup an easy straw man argument probably figured this out.

If the Texas legislature cared about children, it would take the $73 million cut from family planning clinics—which by the way provide for birth control and other kinds of family planning, mitigating the need for abortion—and inject that money into other programs designed to keep children out of poverty and ensuring they have adequate food and healthcare.
Not looking for an easy straw man arguement. This is what I was referring to.

Quote:
Of course, limit in abortion providers tends to push the birthrates up, resulting in more teen pregnancies and a larger population beneath the poverty line.
Yes, if you kill less babies, the birth rate will go up. But the only thing that abortion is a 'treatment' for is pregnancy. As far as a larger population beneath poverty line, is this what you are trying to say ?

http://www.abortionadvantage.com/nat...er-groups.html

But we do agree on the better uses of the $73 million. It's sad that in this day and age, with all the medical advances, that we use the killing of babies as a form of birth control.
__________________
Life's too short to deal with HP tech support. But I am considering a color laser e-printer.

Last edited by MrWillie; Jul 7, 2013 at 11:25 PM.
MrWillie is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7, 2013, 11:28 PM   #88
hulugu
macrumors 68000
 
hulugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: the faraway towns
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWillie View Post
...
Not looking for an easy straw man arguement. This is what I was referring to.

Yes, if you kill less babies, the birth rate will go up. But the only thing that abortion is a 'treatment' is pregnancy. As far as a larger population beneath poverty line, is this what you are trying to say ?
Yes. Again, you're trying to read my point as a support of abortion because it makes your emotional argument easier. But, I'm arguing that these limits on abortion clinics only affect the abortion rates of poorer, rural families.

Quote:
...But we do agree on the better uses of the $73 million. It's sad that in this day and age, with all the medical advances, that we use the killing of babies as a form of birth control.
You need to be more clear on what you mean by "killing babies as a form of birth control."

First, abortion is the worst birth control method there is. It's expensive, traumatic, and dangerous.

Second, most women report using abortion as a last resort, noting that the pregnancy resulted in the failure of one or two forms of birth control. Statistically speaking, if women were using abortion as a primary birth control, the number of abortions would be astronomically higher.

Third, the medical need for abortion (ectopic pregnancy for example) is not "birth control" as your phrasing would suggest.

Anti-abortion advocates have been, and largely continue to, fight the wrong battle.
__________________
I look like a soldier; I feel like a thief
hulugu is offline   0 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Texas Poker Club - The most beautiful Texas Poker on Mac icsoft Mac Applications and Mac App Store 1 May 14, 2014 09:11 PM
All iPads: Should i turn off wifi every half an hour or an hour that i dont use my ipad? Alundra iPad 16 Dec 10, 2013 02:43 PM
Senate Changes Filibuster Rules rdowns Politics, Religion, Social Issues 91 Dec 3, 2013 03:43 PM
Federal Judge Rules Against Part Of Texas Abortion Law bradl Politics, Religion, Social Issues 20 Nov 20, 2013 02:59 AM
MI to pass extreme anti-abortion bill. Democracy? No. War on Women? Yes. mcrain Politics, Religion, Social Issues 15 Jun 8, 2012 11:30 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:01 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC