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Old Dec 22, 2011, 04:20 PM   #26
hulugu
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Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post
I think discussing this woman has become totally counterproductive.
I agree.
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Old Dec 22, 2011, 04:26 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post
I think discussing this woman has become totally counterproductive.
Or perhaps it is producing precisely what it is meant to...
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Old Dec 22, 2011, 05:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by gkarris View Post
Really?

My Christmas card highlights aircraft...

http://www.holidaycardcenter.org/aopa

Image

So much for American "Foundational Values" for me...

Happy Holidays to all...

Yikes, thank you for not sending me one of those, it would remind me too much of Paul Wellstone and Buddy Holly.
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Old Dec 22, 2011, 05:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lord Blackadder View Post
I think discussing this woman has become totally counterproductive.
Agree^^^

It is an embarrassment that this country would even consider this moron for any elected office. She doesn't even reach the level of mediocrity.

Back in the day, a Congressman name Roman Hruska once defended an unqualified Supreme Court candidate saying something close to "People say he's mediocre. Shouldn't mediocre people be represented on the Supreme Court?".

Our electoral process is really scary sometimes.

(Notice how, after including the above quote, I then discussed her anyway. Not too bright, here)
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Old Dec 22, 2011, 05:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by kavika411 View Post
Strange. Although I read the article, I missed where Palin said this. I mean, I saw where she went all bat***** psycho and had.the.gall to use the "o" word - "odd" - but I missed this particular quote.

I'll got back to the Mother Jones article and look again.
Quote:
...instead of traditions like "family, faith and freedom."

...

Palin said the majority of Americans can appreciate the more traditional, "American foundational values...
Well, knowing her, that was the first thing that came to mind, but you're right, that was only one possibility. She may've been thinking in more of a tea party direction, in which case it should have been a picture of George Washington sleigh-riding through Valley Forge, singing "Jingle Bells" and laughing all the way.
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Old Dec 23, 2013, 09:04 AM   #31
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The War On Christmas Update 2013

Dispatches From the Front December 2013

For those sitting at home wringing their hands, praying to God for victory against the dark forces of the TWOC 2013, Breaking News, REJOICE!

Outstanding Atlantic Magazine article, read an article like this and with a neutral mind, you'll understand that the War on Christmas is fictional and invention of Faux News, Bill O'Reilly, and Sarah Palin, looking for anything to rile their base.

Sarah Palin's New Book, New York Times bestseller Good Tidings and Great Joy: Protecting the Heart of Christmas is mentioned. I get a kick out her description that some religions are "not really kosher", lol.

The first part of the article describes the recent history (last 60 years) of Christmas in Santa Montica where the city, really any city, if it going to allow religious displays on city property, to be fair, can't be preferential or prejudice. Not discriminating, the city granted permits and according to Palin's book, out of the twenty-one displays, eighteen were atheistic. Two Christmas displays had traditional Nativity scenes, the Jewish display showcased a menorah. I see no reason why based on the supposed traditions of equality and freedom of religion in this country is supposed to have, if you want to put up with Christmas displays we should be willing to put up with counter views. This appears to be a pretty good argument that if you want a Christmas display or any other ostentatious religious display, it should be on private property, not public property unless you don't also mind all those negative Atheist views on display too.

The article ends with this appropriate passage:
Quote:
While the secularization of Christmas is a real phenomenon, and understandably upsets some Christians, it is a function not of opposition to Christmas, but of the secularization of America—a process explained not by any enemy exterior to religion, but by millions of people independently deciding that organized religion isn't compelling to them. In fact, on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, millions who attend religious services on no other day of the year will fill church pews, even as millions more sit at home watching movies like It's a Wonderful Life that spread the religiously infused Christmas spirit to a nationwide audience. Christmas is the day when the cultural strength of Christianity in America is at its apex.
The smart ones know Faux News and the likes of Sarah Palin will use this as the artificial generation of a crisis, a conservative rallying call. Pray to God to save Christmas from heathens and infidels!! Also, ask God why he would allow this to happen...

BTW, commercialized Christmas is in no danger at all as long as it continues to sell and according to this article it's big, really BIG! However, to be fair, I'll admit that if you are a conservative Christian, that this is a crisis as millions choose to turn away from organized religion. Just be clear what is causing it. It's not a liberal conspiracy. It's people deciding that organized religion is not giving them what they need. Describing it as a "war" or a "liberal conspiracy" is a misnomer used to manipulate and mislead.
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Last edited by Huntn; Dec 23, 2013 at 09:13 AM.
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Old Dec 26, 2013, 09:34 AM   #32
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Israeli parliament speaker: Christmas tree offends

The reasoning: decades of persecution of Jews by Christians. I'd counter that it's the ideal of the symbol that counts, not the short comings of human beings enthralled with why my religion is better than yours.

Quote:
Yuli Edelstein told Israel Radio Thursday such a public display of a Christian symbol could be construed as offensive. Jews have suffered from centuries of persecution by Christians.
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Old Dec 26, 2013, 09:41 AM   #33
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Since Sarah plain isn't actually elected to any office, and neither writes or votes on any laws, I tend to not pay her much attention.

However through the years we've used many different types of cards for the holiday season. Some feature the nativity, and some featured Snoopy or something else cute, cartoony or even Santa himself.

Not really a big deal in my humble opinion.
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Old Dec 26, 2013, 09:47 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Since Sarah plain isn't actually elected to any office, and neither writes or votes on any laws, I tend to not pay her much attention.

However through the years we've used many different types of cards for the holiday season. Some feature the nativity, and some featured Snoopy or something else cute, cartoony or even Santa himself.

Not really a big deal in my humble opinion.
I agree looking at all the cards that I got this year, you would be forgiven if you thought, that Hello Kitty or one of the Disney characters was central in the celebrations.

I cannot remember the last time there was a nativity scene on a card.
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Old Dec 26, 2013, 10:02 AM   #35
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This is great.

Top 20 Filthy Liberals Not Wishing You a ‘Merry Christmas’


Thumb resize. Thumb resize.

Thumb resize. Thumb resize.
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Old Dec 27, 2013, 02:38 AM   #36
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Seems as good a place as any to be reminded what a load of racist dog-whistle scumbags the BNP are.

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Old Dec 27, 2013, 09:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
I'm confused. Is this article sincere or a parody? Calling elements of the GOP, top liberals? Really now.

Quote:
The War on Christmas™ rages on with no end in sight, but that’s all about to end. Republicans took a good first step this year by simplifying the battlefield, first selling t-shirts that said “‘Happy Holidays’ is What Liberals Say,” then switching them out for ones that said “I’m Not Afraid to Say ‘Merry Christmas.’”
As far as Happy Holidays vs Merry Christmas, as a Christian is it justified to vilify people who 1) may not be Christians, 2) Don't think Christianity is the end all be all, 3) are sensitive to others feelings who may not be Christians, but want to express a positive greeting? As an Agnostic raised Christian, I have no issues saying "Merry Christmas", to people I know, but when dealing with strangers, I don't feel like offering Jews or Muslims, etc that greeting, so I revert to Happy Holidays. Especially for a Christian, I regard the greeting "Happy Holidays" as an acknowledgment that Christianity is not the only belief out there and it's a good thing, not something to be vilified.

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Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
Seems as good a place as any to be reminded what a load of racist dog-whistle scumbags the BNP are.

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God would be proud.
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Old Dec 27, 2013, 03:05 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post

Outstanding Atlantic Magazine article, read an article like this and with a neutral mind, you'll understand that the War on Christmas is fictional and invention of Faux News, Bill O'Reilly, and Sarah Palin, looking for anything to rile their base.

Sarah Palin's New Book, New York Times bestseller Good Tidings and Great Joy: Protecting the Heart of Christmas is mentioned. I get a kick out her description that some religions are "not really kosher", lol.
You gotta love that lame attempt at humor.


Quote:
The article ends with this appropriate passage:

[...]


The smart ones know Faux News and the likes of Sarah Palin will use this as the artificial generation of a crisis, a conservative rallying call. Pray to God to save Christmas from heathens and infidels!! Also, ask God why he would allow this to happen...

BTW, commercialized Christmas is in no danger at all as long as it continues to sell and according to this article it's big, really BIG! However, to be fair, I'll admit that if you are a conservative Christian, that this is a crisis as millions choose to turn away from organized religion. Just be clear what is causing it. It's not a liberal conspiracy. It's people deciding that organized religion is not giving them what they need. Describing it as a "war" or a "liberal conspiracy" is a misnomer used to manipulate and mislead.

I'm old enough to remember the vestiges of Puritanism that still remained in New England until fairly recently. Since Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and many others of the far right are the heirs of the Fundamentalist/Authoritarian viewpoint that the Puritans established, it seems particularly ironic to me that so many are all jumping on the TWOC bandwagon. Here is why (kind of long, but, to understand how bizarre the notion is of TWOC, you kind of have to know the history):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christm...an_New_England

Quote:
Christmas celebrations from the 1620's to the 1850's were culturally and legally suppressed and thus, virtually non-existent. The Puritan community found no Scriptural justification for celebrating Christmas, and associated such celebrations with paganism and idolatry. The earliest years of the Plymouth Colony were troubled with non-Puritans attempting to make merry, and Governor William Bradford was forced to reprimand offenders. English laws suppressing the holiday were enacted in the Interregnum, but repealed late in the 17th century. However, the Puritan view of Christmas and its celebration had gained cultural ascendancy in New England, and Christmas celebrations continued to be discouraged despite being legal. When Christmas became a Federal holiday in 1870, the Puritan view was relaxed and late nineteenth-century Americans fashioned the day into the Christmas of commercialism, liberal spirituality, and nostalgia that most Americans recognize today.

In Puritans at Play (1995), Bruce Colin Daniels writes "Christmas occupied a special place in the ideological religious warfare of Reformation Europe." Most Anabaptists, Quakers, and Congregational and Presbyterian Puritans, he observes, regarded the day as an abomination while Anglicans, Lutherans, the Dutch Reformed and other denominations celebrated the day as did Roman Catholics. When the Church of England promoted the Feast of the Nativity as a major religious holiday, the Puritans attacked it as "residual Papist idolatry".

Puritans heaped contempt on Christmas, Daniels writes, calling it 'Foolstide' and suppressing any attempts to celebrate it for several reasons. First, no holy days except the Sabbath were sanctioned in Scripture, second, the most egregious behaviors were exercised in its celebration (Cotton Mather railed against these behaviors), and third, December 25 was ahistorical. The Puritan argued that the selection of the date was an early Christian hijacking of a Roman festival, and to celebrate a December Christmas was to defile oneself by paying homage to a pagan custom. James Howard Barnett notes in The American Christmas (1984) that the Puritan view prevailed in New England for almost two centuries.

In his award-winning book Creating the Commonwealth (1995) historian Stephen Innes writes that the Puritan calendar was one of the most leisure-less ever adopted by mankind with approximately 300 working days compared to the 240 typical of cultures from Ancient Rome to modern America. Days of rest in the New England calendar were few, Innes writes, and restricted to Sabbath, election day, Harvard commencement day, and periodic days of thanksgiving and humiliation. Non-Puritans in New England deplored the loss of the holidays enjoyed by the laboring classes in England.

The Plymouth Pilgrims put their loathing for the day into practice in 1620 when they spent their first Christmas Day in the New World building their first structure in the New World – thus demonstrating their complete contempt for the day.

A year later on December 25, 1621, Governor William Bradford led a work detail into the forest and discovered some recent arrivals among the crew had scruples about working on the day. Bradford noted in his history of the colony, Of Plymouth Plantation:

"On the day called Christmas Day, the Governor called [the settlers] out to work as was usual. However, the most of this new company excused themselves and said it went against their consciences to work on that day. So the Governor told them that if they made it [a] matter of conscience, he would spare them till they were better informed; so he led away the rest and left them."

When the Governor and his crew returned home at noon they discovered those left behind playing stool-ball, pitching the bar, and pursuing other sports. Bradford confiscated their implements, reprimanded them, forbade any further reveling in the streets, and told them their devotion for the day should be confined to their homes.

Massachusetts and Connecticut followed the Plymouth colony in refusing to condone any observance of the day. When the Puritans came to power in England following the execution of King Charles I, Parliament enacted a law in 1647 abolishing the observance of Christmas, Easter, and Whitsuntide. The Puritans of New England then passed a series of laws making any observance of Christmas illegal. A Massachusetts law of 1659 punished offenders with a hefty five shilling fine.

Laws suppressing the celebration of Christmas were repealed in 1681, but staunch Puritans continued to regard the day as an abomination. Eighteenth century New Englanders viewed Christmas as the representation of royal officialdom, external interference in local affairs, dissolute behavior, and an impediment to their holy mission.

During Anglican Governor Sir Edmund Andros tenure (December 20, 1686 – April 18, 1689), for example, the royal government closed Boston shops on Christmas Day and drove the schoolmaster out of town for a forced holiday. Following Andros' overthrow, however, the Puritan view reasserted itself and shops remained open for business as usual on Christmas with goods such as hay and wood being brought into Boston as on any other work day.

With such an onus placed upon Christmas, non-Puritans in colonial New England made no attempt to celebrate the day. Many spent the day quietly at home. In 1771, Anna Winslow, an American schoolgirl visiting Boston noted in her diary, "I kept Christmas at home this year, and did a good day's work."

Although Christmas celebrations were legal after 1680, New England officials continued to frown upon gift giving and reveling. Evergreen decoration, associated with pagan custom, was expressly forbidden in Puritan meeting houses and discouraged in the New England home. Merrymakers were prosecuted for disturbing the peace. The Puritan view was tenacious. As late as 1870, classes were scheduled in Boston public schools on Christmas Day and punishments were doled out to children who chose to stay home beneath the Christmas tree. One commentator hinted that the Puritans viewed Santa Claus as the Anti-Christ.

In the aftermath of the American Civil War, Christmas became the festival highpoint of the American calendar. The day became a Federal holiday in 1870 under President Ulysses S. Grant in an attempt to unite north and south. The Puritan hostility to Christmas was gradually relaxed. In the late nineteenth century, authors praised the holiday for its liberality, family togetherness, and joyful observance. In 1887, for example, St. Nicholas Magazine published a story about a sickly Puritan boy of 1635 being restored to health when his mother brings him a bough of Christmas greenery.

One commentator suggested the Puritans had actually done the day a service in reviling the gaming, dissipation, and sporting in its observation. When the day's less pleasant associations were stripped away, Americans recreated the day according to their tastes and times. The doctrines that caused the Puritans to regard the day with disapprobation were modified and the day was rescued from its traditional excesses of behavior. Christmas was reshaped in late nineteenth century America with liberal Protestantism and spirituality, commercialism, artisanship, nostalgia, and hope becoming the day's distinguishing characteristics.
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Old Dec 27, 2013, 04:13 PM   #39
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As a Christian, I call BS on the whole "War on Christmas". Wishing someone "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" is all inclusive as many holidays are celebrated around this time. Including everyone is a more Christian thing to do.

Not to mention a real "War on Christmas" would be not letting people celebrated it or imprisoning them for mentioning it. That's not happening so….I'm not sure where this "war" comes from.
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Old Dec 27, 2013, 04:50 PM   #40
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Seems as good a place as any to be reminded what a load of racist dog-whistle scumbags the BNP are.

Image
It's the BNP, dude. No dog whistle needed. They have made their thoughts on "race mixing" and immigrants very clear.
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Old Dec 28, 2013, 09:17 AM   #41
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You gotta love that lame attempt at humor.

I'm old enough to remember the vestiges of Puritanism that still remained in New England until fairly recently. Since Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and many others of the far right are the heirs of the Fundamentalist/Authoritarian viewpoint that the Puritans established, it seems particularly ironic to me that so many are all jumping on the TWOC bandwagon. Here is why (kind of long, but, to understand how bizarre the notion is of TWOC, you kind of have to know the history):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christm...an_New_England
Great reading! The problem with Puritan thinking as I see it, is why would scripture have to say it to allow the celebration of someone's birthdate, especially someone as important as Christ is to Christians? This Saturnalia link associates the Puritan dislike of Christmas based on its Pagan origins:

Quote:
During the ancient Roman Saturnalia, human-shaped delicacies[dubious – discuss] were consumed and jovial singing[clarification needed] was performed in the streets, which makes it a "precursor of modern gingerbread man" and caroling. The ancient Roman Saturnalia was integrated into Christianity in the 4th century, as a means to mass convert the pagan Roman citizens.[94][unreliable source?] Due to its pagan origin, the Christmas festival was banned in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681 by the Puritans as an illegal observance.[95][96] Certain religious groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses do not observe Christmas for the same or similar reasons.[97]
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Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
As a Christian, I call BS on the whole "War on Christmas". Wishing someone "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" is all inclusive as many holidays are celebrated around this time. Including everyone is a more Christian thing to do.

Not to mention a real "War on Christmas" would be not letting people celebrated it or imprisoning them for mentioning it. That's not happening so….I'm not sure where this "war" comes from.
It warms my heart to know there are Christians like you out there. Merry Christmas!
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Old Dec 28, 2013, 09:53 AM   #42
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I'm glad you provided some examples, because when I clicked on the link for that site, it made Safari totally spaz out.

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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Quote:
While the secularization of Christmas is a real phenomenon, and understandably upsets some Christians, it is a function not of opposition to Christmas, but of the secularization of America—a process explained not by any enemy exterior to religion, but by millions of people independently deciding that organized religion isn't compelling to them.
And that, folks, is it in a nutshell.

The overreaction from the right is like a little kid having a tantrum: "You're not paying enough attention to me!"

The government is not sending troops to churches all over the US to confiscate manger scenes.
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