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View Poll Results: Is Lance Armstrong guilty of doping?
He's guilty 59 77.63%
He's been framed 17 22.37%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 18, 2013, 12:41 PM   #126
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I see. Here in the US, we have real sports.
The Elfstedentocht of 1963 became known as "The hell of '63" when only 69 of the 10,000 contestants were able to finish the race, due to the extremely low temperatures, -18°C, and a harsh eastern wind. Conditions were so horrendous that the 1963 winner, Reinier Paping, became a national hero, and the tour itself legendary

I don't know about real sports but these are real sporting heroes in my book.
They did all for a small silver cross.

-18C = -0.4 F

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:48 PM   #127
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Way too little and waaay too late.

I applaud what mr. Armstrong did off the sport, but he remains a despicable man and the biggest fraud in any sport ever, by a very wide margin.
bleh.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 01:00 PM   #128
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I see. Here in the US, we have real sports.
Joke I hope?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 02:13 PM   #129
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for a change of 'pace', here is a real sportsman



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"Two weeks ago, on December 2, Spanish athlete Iván Fernández Anaya was competing in a cross-country race in Burlada, Navarre. He was running second, some distance behind race leader Abel Mutai - bronze medalist in the 3,000-meter steeplechase at the London Olympics. As they entered the finishing straight, he saw the Kenyan runner - the certain winner of the race - mistakenly pull up about 10 meters before the finish, thinking he had already crossed the line.

Fernández Anaya quickly caught up with him, but instead of exploiting Mutai's mistake to speed past and claim an unlikely victory, he stayed behind and, using gestures, guided the Kenyan to the line and let him cross first.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 02:42 PM   #130
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I'm not really a sports fan, so i imagine i am mostly uninformed, but... I remember reading various reports earlier in the year that in some sports (cycling included), the current state is more a case of how good your doctor is in making PED use invisible. The article was from a sports doctor arguing that PED use should be allowed, but monitored and regulated.


It seems reasonable to have dual threads for sports. One with no checks, and one with an immediate lifetime ban and strip of all titles for the merest hint of PED use. Pretty soon in each sport it would become apparent which was most enjoyed (and thus which made money), thus one version would attract money, and the other would become a side show. I'd guess it would be different in different sports. I know this is completely unrealistic, especially for large scale team sports, but it would be interesting.

For the non-PED versions I'd imagine you'd also want to standardise equipment too, have every participant equally equipped. There is apparently discussion that the GB cycling team in the 2008 Olympics did so well in part due to technology - if we are examining athletic excellence is this any better than PED use? (In no way am I disparaging the GB cycling team, nor their athletic ability.)
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 02:46 PM   #131
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for a change of 'pace', here is a real sportsman
Agreed!

And as for cycling getting a bad name, what about all the cheating, aggression, arrogance and disrespectful behaviour going on in 'the "beautiful" game'? If there's one sport that's gone downhill over the years it's (professional) football. Disgusting.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 07:42 AM   #132
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Cycling's in a strange place now. If riders are doing more than 6W's per kilo cycling fans will start pointing fingers. Many of the best stage times look to be locked up and left in the 90s even though the bikes and training now are much improved. You're not going to see much new (most of the great material is uploaded online), so you may as well ignore the Tours and get on your own bike and go for a ride (unless you like rooting for your country or whatever).

I have days where I think maybe we should leave them to their tricks and society should take a long look at our attitudes on drugs.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 07:53 AM   #133
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Cycling's in a strange place now. If riders are doing more than 6W's per kilo cycling fans will start pointing fingers. Many of the best stage times look to be locked up and left in the 90s even though the bikes and training now are much improved. You're not going to see much new (most of the great material is uploaded online), so you may as well ignore the Tours and get on your own bike and go for a ride (unless you like rooting for your country or whatever).

I have days where I think maybe we should leave them to their tricks and society should take a long look at our attitudes on drugs.
I'm old enough to remember when Tom Simpson died during the Tour de France, at the time everybody just accepted it as a part of the sport of cycling. Sad but very little happened as a direct result of his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Simpson
Since the Lance Armstrong saga began there has been a real change in attitude to doping in general and especially in cycling.

Teams either from the Netherlands or sponsored by Companies based in the Netherlands have had to come clean about their drugged past.

Major sponsors have left the sport and will not be back in the near future.

Cycling is in a very dark place right now, one more major scandal and it will not survive.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 11:52 AM   #134
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In 1933, an OK cyclist named Francois Faure set an impressive hour record on a recumbent style bicycle. This upset the UCI, the governing body for bicycle racing, so they decided to set strict specifications for what constituted a racing bicycle, which obviously led to the exclusion of recumbents. They have been very aggressive about limiting design innovation over the years because they feel that the race should be about the cyclist, not the bicycle. Hence, doping is the natural conclusion, because if you cannot make a better bike, you have to make a better rider.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 12:12 PM   #135
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Major sponsors have left the sport and will not be back in the near future.

Cycling is in a very dark place right now, one more major scandal and it will not survive.
I don't believe that for a second. The sport is just as strong as it ever has been and unless I'm mistaken amateur racing is more popular than ever.

Your doom and gloom scenario is out of place.

However, I think, and this pertains to all sports, the presence of major sponsors with their big money only serves to drive athletes to drug use as the spoils are so high. We've seen the corruption in American basketball and baseball as well as the phenomenal corruption of college level sports in the US. Penn State is only the most recent.

Taking money out of sport is what's needed, not adding even more big money sponsors. US Soccer is probably one sport that has remained uncorrupted, mainly because there is so little money involved.

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In 1933, an OK cyclist named Francois Faure set an impressive hour record on a recumbent style bicycle. This upset the UCI, the governing body for bicycle racing, so they decided to set strict specifications for what constituted a racing bicycle, which obviously led to the exclusion of recumbents. They have been very aggressive about limiting design innovation over the years because they feel that the race should be about the cyclist, not the bicycle. Hence, doping is the natural conclusion, because if you cannot make a better bike, you have to make a better rider.
A few years back I remember that a minimum weight limit was established for pro racing bikes. The minor tweaks that happen from year to year probably aren't enough to give an edge to any one rider.



On the larger issue, I think pro sports needs to remain drug free. We aren't that far from creating some juiced super human but I don't think that serves the sporting public. Sure, such a person may have a sideshow value but sports really are about dedication and determination, not what can be created in a science lab.

I think an area that is going to be very interesting to watch are people like Oscar Pistorius.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 12:58 PM   #136
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I don't believe that for a second. The sport is just as strong as it ever has been and unless I'm mistaken amateur racing is more popular than ever.

Your doom and gloom scenario is out of place.
If you could just for once not be bound by only using English language sources.

First off this thread is about the Pro cycling world that Armstrong used to be in, and not the amateur sport.


All German teams have withdraw from cycling. Sponsors just didn't want theirs names and doping being together. The Dutch main sponsor followed this January.

De UCI legt het wielrennen op z’n gat


De renners zijn boos, de ploegen ontevreden, de sponsoren lopen weg en het publiek snapt er niets meer van. De internationale wielerbond UCI en voorzitter Pat McQuaid maken er een zootje van.

Bijna twee jaar lang maakte de internationale wielerbond UCI jacht op de scalp van Alberto Contador. Alles en iedereen werd ingeschakeld om hem aan de hoogste boom op te hangen: advocaten, laboratoria, privédetectives. Het lukte nog ook. Na de uitspraak maakten de bobo’s van de UCI bekend dat ze ook onderzoeken of ze Contadors ploeg Saxo Bank hun World Tourlicentie kunnen afnemen.




Maar dit weekend, nog geen vier weken na het vonnis, zei UCI-baas Pat McQuaid doodleuk in een interview met de Spaanse krant AS dat Contador geen doping heeft gebruikt. ‘Waarschijnlijk was het een vervuild voedingssupplement.’ De verantwoordelijkheid van de schorsing schuift hij op het bordje van het Tribunaal voor de Sport (TAS).

De UCI haalt alles uit de kast om Contador en diens huidige ploeg zo zwaar mogelijk te straffen voor een vermeend dopingvergrijp, maar de Grote Baas zegt dat Contador helemaal geen doping gebruikt heeft – wie het nog snapt mag het zeggen.

Maar de behandeling van de zaak Contador past in het patroon van het beleid van de UCI. De internationale wielerbond zou ervoor moeten zijn om wielrennen te promoten en te professionaliseren, maar in praktijk doet de bond het tegenovergestelde.

Chaos

Het grootste probleem van de wielersport is dat alle betrokken partijen alleen voor hun eigen hachie knokken, net als in de koers zelf. Organisatoren, ploegen, renners, sponsoren: ze hebben allemaal andere belangen en proberen over de rug van de ander macht en centen te verzamelen. Daardoor is de structuur van de sport chaotisch, anarchistisch. De belangrijkste taak van de UCI zou moeten zijn om de partijen rond de tafel te krijgen en een overkoepelend beleid uit te stippelen waar iedereen uiteindelijk beter van wordt. Maar dat doet de UCI niet. In plaats daarvan stort de bond zich ook in het strijdgewoel. Ook de UCI wil macht en geld vergaren ten koste van anderen. Zo voert de bond al jaren een Koude Oorlog tegen Tourorganisatie ASO. En de grote wielerploegen denken achter de schermen na over de oprichting van een wilde bond omdat de UCI de ene na de andere prutsbeslissing neemt in een poging om de sport naar hun hand te zetten.

Beste voorbeeld is de afschaffing van de oortjes. Zonder overleg met renners of ploegen drukte de UCI die regel door. De koers zou namelijk aantrekkelijker worden zonder radio’s. Nu, een jaar later, blijkt niemand bij de UCI te onderzoeken of er daadwerkelijk spannendere wedstrijden worden verreden zonder oortjes. Woordvoerder Enrico Carpani laat weten dat de bond een commissie instelt. Wie, hoe, wat en wanneer is onbekend.

Over alternatieven (renners in contact met de jurywagen bijvoorbeeld) geen woord. Rabo-renner Maarten Tjallingii: ‘Ze vragen ons niets. En als ze ons wel iets vragen, dan doen ze niets met de antwoorden. Blijkbaar is onze veiligheid niet belangrijk genoeg.’

Het gebrek aan structuur in de wielersport jaagt potentiële sponsoren weg: vooral multinationals willen niet investeren in een sport met zoveel chaos en onzekerheid. Daardoor vallen er ploegen om en komen wielerkoersen in financiële problemen – in Spanje blijft er geen wedstrijd over als het zo doorgaat. In plaats van de problemen aan te pakken feliciteerde de Pat McQuaid de UCI en zichzelf met een onderzoekje van Ernst & Young waaruit bleek dat de budgetten van de grote ploegen gestegen zijn. Vanuit diezelfde ploegen kreeg hij meteen de wind van voren: áls het al waar was, dan was het vooral niet aan McQuaid en de bond te danken.

Dynastie

De UCI zou een geloofwaardige, stabiele factor in de sport moeten zijn. Ze zou het dopingprobleem zakelijk en rechtvaardig moeten aanpakken, ze zou de sport moeten innoveren om het aantrekkelijker te maken voor het grote publiek, ze zou tv-gelden moeten genereren en die verdelen over de ploegen. Maar in plaats daarvan rommelt de UCI maar wat aan met dopingzaken en nutteloze exercities rond wel of geen radiootjes.

Pat McQuaid maakt het er met zijn uitspraken niet geloofwaardiger op. Dat was hij sowieso al niet. Als wielrenner brak hij de internationale anti-apartheidboycot door te racen in Zuid-Afrika, en na zijn aantreden als UCI-voorzitter werd het er niet beter op. McQuaid gunde zijn broer – Darach McQuaid – de organisatie van het WK in Richmond en promootte de Tour of Mumbai (georganiseerd door zijn zoon David McQuaid). Zijn andere zoon – Andrew McQuaid – is rennersmakelaar; hij vertegenwoordigt de belangen van het halve peloton. Belangenverstrengeling? Het heeft er op z’n minst de schijn van.

De UCI maakt er een potje van. De renners zijn boos, de ploegen ontevreden, de sponsoren lopen weg en het publiek snapt er niets meer van. Misschien is dat idee van een wilde bond helemaal zo gek nog niet.

http://www.deondernemer.nl/sport/635...op-zn-gat.html


Rabobank stopt met sponsoring van de wielerploeg. Dat maakte de bank vandaag officieel bekend. De beslissing is genomen naar aanleiding van het rapport van USADA. De bank stopt per 31 december 2012 met zowel de mannen als de vrouwen. Het blijft wel verbonden aan het veldrijden en de opleidingsploeg.

Volgens Bert Bruggink, lid van de raad van bestuur, sprak het USADA-rapport boekdelen en was dit besluit onvermijdelijk voor de bank: ''Het gaat met pijn in het hart, maar voor onze bank is het een onvermijdelijke beslissing. Wij zijn niet meer overtuigd dat de internationale professionele wielerwereld in staat is om een schone en eerlijke sport mogelijk te maken. Wij hebben niet het vertrouwen dat dit op afzienbare termijn ten goede zal keren'', zo luidt het besluit.

Zeventien jaar geleden stapte Rabobank in de wielersport. In die tijd groeide de ploeg uit tot een compleet pakket en stond Rabobank synoniem aan wielerminnend Nederland. Waar in het begin de ploeg enkel bestond uit een heren afdeling, kwamen daar in de jaren ook een jeugdopleiding, een afdeling veldrijden en sinds vorig jaar een damesprofploeg bij. Dit ten alle tijde met volle overtuiging en een missie. Die missie is nu ten einde.

''Wielrennen is een prachtige sport waaraan miljoenen Nederlanders plezier beleven en een groot deel van die Nederlanders is klant van de Rabobank. Maar ons besluit staat vast: we trekken ons terug uit de professionele wielersport. Het is pijnlijk, niet alleen voor de Rabobank, maar vooral voor de liefhebbers en de sporters die geen blaam treft'', zo sluit Bruggink af.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/11664...ar-kwaad.dhtml


Greg LeMond urges UCI changes

GENEVA -- Three-time Tour de France winner Greg LeMond has urged the leaders of cycling's governing body to resign in the wake of the Lance Armstrong doping affair, calling them "the corrupt part of the sport."

LeMond posted an open letter on his Facebook page Wednesday night that asked those who care about cycling to join him in telling International Cycling Union President Pat McQuaid and honorary president Hein Verbruggen to step down.

LeMond's letter came after the UCI stripped Armstrong of his seven Tour de France titles and banned him for life on Monday for his involvement in what a U.S. Anti-Doping Agency report described as a massive doping program.

Verbruggen led world cycling from 1991-2005, the era when Armstrong won his titles, and retains a seat on the UCI management board. He is still perceived in the sport as a mentor to McQuaid, who succeeded him.

LeMond, the Tour winner in 1986, `89 and `90, said the problem for cycling is not drugs but corruption.

The only American remaining on the 99-year Tour list of champions told McQuaid: "Pat in my opinion you and Hein are the corrupt part of the sport."

McQuaid, an Irishman whose second term as UCI president expires in September, said Monday he had no intention of resigning over the systematic drug scandals that have ruined the sport's credibility.

"I believe that there are many, maybe most that work at the UCI that are dedicated to cycling, they do it out of the love of the sport, but you and your buddy Hein have destroyed the sport," LeMond said.

"You know ... well what has been going on in cycling, and if you want to deny it, then even more reasons why those who love cycling need to demand that you resign."

Verbruggen declined to respond to LeMond's comments when contacted by The Associated Press.

LeMond won support from Pedro Delgado, the 1988 Tour winner, who used his Twitter account to post a headline that said corruption was a bigger problem for cycling than drugs.

"Totally agree with my ex-rival Lemond," Delgado wrote.

The UCI and its leaders have reacted to previous corruption accusations by filing defamation suits against Floyd Landis, who was stripped of the 2006 Tour title for doping and was a key witness in the USADA case, and Paul Kimmage, an Irish journalist and Tour rider in LeMond's era.

McQuaid has refused to back down from suing Kimmage over accusations that cycling's leaders protected Armstrong. The case is scheduled to be heard on Dec. 12 in Vevey, Switzerland.

"This is about a journalist who accused me, and my predecessor and the UCI of being corrupt. It's a straightforward defamation case," McQuaid said Monday at a news conference called to confirm sanctions against Armstrong.

McQuaid, Verbruggen and the UCI announced this month they had won a similar defamation case against Landis -- and damages of $10,667 each -- after the former Armstrong teammate made similar allegations. Landis was not served with papers in the case and it is unclear if the judgment carries any weight outside Switzerland.

LeMond is backing Kimmage's legal battle, which has become a lightning rod of cycling fans' anger at how the sport's image is being shattered. A defense fund created by two cycling websites has raised more than $73,000 to pay Kimmage's legal fees.

"I would encourage anyone that loves cycling to donate and support Paul in his fight against Pat and Hein and the UCI," LeMond wrote. "I donated money for Paul's defense, and I am willing to donate a lot more, but I would like to use it to lobby for dramatic change in cycling.

"The sport does not need Pat McQuaid or Hein Verbruggen."

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/...leaders-resign
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 01:00 PM   #137
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Cycling is in a very dark place right now, one more major scandal and it will not survive.
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Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
I don't believe that for a second. The sport is just as strong as it ever has been
Cycling is increasing in popularity, especially amongst recreational riders which is fantastic. I'm not sure that relates to the respectability of pro cycling. Depending on what happens with this Armstrong affair, we may see the blame, and prosecutions of UCI officials. I think 'bunny is right in that another scandal after this would completely destroy the governing body.

The main thing about all this is that you can't put your faith into any rider now in cycling. There's a good chance they've doped at some point to get where they are today, even if they're not doing it anymore. In that sense I think pro cycling hasn't survived.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 01:07 PM   #138
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Cycling is increasing in popularity, especially amongst recreational riders which is fantastic. I'm not sure that relates to the respectability of pro cycling. Depending on what happens with this Armstrong affair, we may see the blame, and prosecutions of UCI officials. I think 'bunny is right in that another scandal after this would completely destroy the governing body.

The main thing about all this is that you can't put your faith into any rider now in cycling. There's a good chance they've doped at some point to get where they are today, even if they're not doing it anymore. In that sense I think pro cycling hasn't survived.
Doping was a way of life at Rabobank, says Thomas Dekker


Thomas Dekker has shed further light on the doping culture that existed at Rabobank during his spell at the team from 2004 to 2008. The Dutchman, who previously served a two-year ban for testing positive for EPO, has now confessed to also undergoing blood transfusions during his time at Rabobank.

“It was easy to be influenced, doping was widespread,” Dekker told NRC Handelsblad, saying that he began using EPO in 2006.

In May of last year, former Rabobank manager Theo De Rooy already admitted that doping was tolerated on the team until 2007 and the Dutch bank withdrew from sponsorship at the end of the 2012 season. The team continues under the guise of Blanco Pro Cycling in 2013, albeit without a title sponsor and with alterations to its management structure.

Dekker, who now rides for Garmin-Sharp after returning from suspension in late 2011, said that doping was simply an endemic part of the culture in the Rabobank set-up of the time.

“They should have told me to be patient and to stay clear of doping, but that wasn’t the case,” he said. “There was no dissenting voice. Doping was a way of life and a way of riding for many teammates, colleagues and me, too. Doping was part of the job – it’s hard, you train hard and you do everything for the bike.”

As well as using EPO, Dekker explained that a member of the team’s management had put him in contact with “a man who carried out blood transfusions,” and he said he received transfusions on three occasions.

“I thought it was the way to success, all the big riders were doing it,” Dekker said. “I received a blood bag three times. With doping, you can have everything, but in fact you’re left with nothing afterwards.”

As well as Dekker’s confession, the NRC Handelsblad report includes information from an unnamed former Rabobank rider, who says that EPO was first used by a majority of the team’s riders at the 1996 Tour de France.

Late last year, NRL also claimed that Michael Boogerd, Denis Menchov and Michael Rasmussen had also undergone blood doping while at Rabobank, and reported that Dr. Geert Leinders - who later worked for Sky - had been named by Levi Leipheimer in his testimony to USADA and had assisted the American in his doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dopi...-thomas-dekker

And it's not something new 1998 the sport has been rotten since a very long time and UCI has closed it's eyes.

Festina affair

The Festina Affair refers to the events that surrounded several doping scandals, doping investigations and confessions by riders to doping that occurred during and after the 1998 Tour de France. The affair began when a large haul of doping products was found in a car of the Festina cycling team just before the start of the race. An investigation was followed by the opening of a separate case into the TVM team and the subsequent searching of many teams during the race. The investigation revealed systematic doping, and suspicion was raised that there may have been a widespread network of doping involving many teams of the Tour de France. Publicity on the case was constant and negative. Hotels were searched by police, and a spate of confessions were made by retired and current riders. Many team personnel were arrested or detained, and protests were made by riders in the race. Several teams withdrew from the race.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festina_affair
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 01:24 PM   #139
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I don't believe that for a second. The sport is just as strong as it ever has been and unless I'm mistaken amateur racing is more popular than ever.

Your doom and gloom scenario is out of place.
Maybe I'm not the only one?
Presidents of British and Dutch federations warn UCI that independent inquiry must be truly independent
Global governing body warned over commission set up to investigate Armstrong scandal



The presidents of two of Europe's biggest cycling federations have warned the UCI that any indepndent commission set up to investigate the UCI's handling of the Armstrong affair must be truly independent.

Brian Cookson, president of British Cycling and a member of the UCI’s Management Committee, has said that cycling’s global governing body has one “last chance to re-establish itself as a credible organisation” in the appointment of an independent commission to conduct an inquiry on the Lance Armstrong scandal, while Marcel Wintels, President of the Royal Dutch Cycling Federation has warned UCI president, Pat Mcquaid that cycling faces its "deepest crisis ever".

Cookson, quoted on Telegraph.co.uk, said that only a truly independent commission empowered to look at the UCI’s own role in the Armstrong scandal, among other things, would be able to restore credibility to the governing body.

“To be honest this is the UCI’s last chance to re-establish itself as a credible organisation,” Cookson said.“Unless we have a commission that the sporting community trust to deliver verdicts on the big questions the UCI, to put it honestly, will be stuffed.”

According to Cookson, the membership of the three-member panel that will conduct the investigation, due to be confirmed each week, will be decided with input from the World Anti-Doping Agency and the International Olympic Committee. One member is likely to be a judge enjoying an international reputation, with the other two drawn from the world of sport.

“We are looking at a commission of three to investigate everything and anything that needs looking at and, in fact, once those three are appointed they will be invited to draw up their own terms of reference. Nothing will be off limits.

"That was the strong mood of the management board meeting on Friday and we are expecting everybody from Hein Verbruggen and Pat McQuaid downwards to be completely transparent at all times.”

Reading between the lines, there is perhaps a hint there of disquiet among members of the Management Committee regarding the insistence of McQuaid and his predecessor Verbruggen, now its Honorary President, that the UCI has nothing to hide.

That extraordinary management board meeting had been announced by McQuaid on Monday, when he confirmed that the UCI would not be challenging the decision of the United States Anti Doping Agency (USADA) to ban Armstrong for life and strip him of results including his seven Tour de France titles.

During the press conference where the UCI revealed its decision, McQuaid was in evident discomfort fielding questions from the press about the governing body’s role in the scandal, including being quizzed on USADA’s assertion that it had been complicit in helping cover up suspect tests for EPO by Armstrong.

Ahead of that meeting, Marcel Wintels, President of the Royal Dutch Cycling Federation (KNWU), wrote an open letter to McQuaid warning him that cycling faced its “deepest crisis ever” as a result of the systematic doping of the Armstrong era.

He went on to question whether the scourge of doping had truly been eradicated and pointing out that during the Armstrong years it had become viewed as “normal behaviour” by those involved in the sport.

Noting that the language being employed now regarding its commitment to a cleaner sport was similar to that used in the wake of the Festina affair in 1998, Wintels cautioned that cycling could not afford another “false start.

After previous scandals, he said, the commitment to cleaning up the sport was always reaffirmed to the public and the press, but in all cases the measures implemented were not long-lasting and riders managed to find a way round them eventually.

Wintels not only urged that an international, independent commission be set up to address the issue of the extent of doping currently in the sport, but also said that any findings it made must be acted upon.

Among measures that he suggested adopting to help ensure the sport’s future were increasing the standard length of bans from the current two to four years, implementing measures not only against individuals but also their teams such as fine, loss of points and the withdrawal of licences, and banning teams from hiring any staff with past involvement with doping.

He also called for a separation of functions at the UCI to prevent conflicts of interest from arising.

http://road.cc/content/news/69699-br...emonstrate-its
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 01:36 PM   #140
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Good reading there, thanks 'bunny for bringing us up to speed

We should all be prepared to throw some forgiveness Lance's way.. if he goes all out and tells all on the UCI and various sponsors' knowledge and help in cheating. We can't let him be the fall guy for what seems more like an industry of doping. There must be 100's of people involved in some manner.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 01:41 PM   #141
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Good reading there, thanks 'bunny for bringing us up to speed

We should all be prepared to throw some forgiveness Lance's way.. if he goes all out and tells all on the UCI and various sponsors' knowledge and help in cheating. We can't let him be the fall guy for what seems more like an industry of doping. There must be 100's of people involved in some manner.
There is a French journalist who says that the true numbers are closer to 5,000 people involved.
UCI like FIFA is a corrupt organization, but they have all the power over the sport.
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 10:12 PM   #142
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If you could just for once not be bound by only using English language sources.

First off this thread is about the Pro cycling world that Armstrong used to be in, and not the amateur sport.
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Stereotype much? Your attitude sucks. You know nothing about me but claim to know that I'm a know nothing American. I'd like an apology.

Cycle racing is over 100 years old and this year will see the 100th TdF. Amateur cycling, whether recreational or competitive seems to have never been stronger in the US. As we all know, amateur sports provide the foundation for the pros. If people want to race, they will find a way to do so. I also seriously doubt the Olympic committee is going to drop racing as a sport. As I mentioned earlier, big, self-important sponsors bring lots of money and lots of pressure to win. Sport in general would be better off if corporate sponsorship was reigned in.

There are also too many businesses that quite honestly need racing to survive. If mcQuaid won't step down, I'm sure there will be a lot of pressure from the likes of Trek, Shimano, Campagnolo, etc.

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Cycling is increasing in popularity, especially amongst recreational riders which is fantastic. I'm not sure that relates to the respectability of pro cycling. Depending on what happens with this Armstrong affair, we may see the blame, and prosecutions of UCI officials. I think 'bunny is right in that another scandal after this would completely destroy the governing body.

The main thing about all this is that you can't put your faith into any rider now in cycling. There's a good chance they've doped at some point to get where they are today, even if they're not doing it anymore. In that sense I think pro cycling hasn't survived.
You could say the same about almost any sport, the problem with cycling is that Lance was all powerful. If he did bribe officials, which seems very likely, then we can expect a purge of the UCI and the cycling world will move on. Bunny's apocalyptic vision ignores the broad appeal of cycling. Amongst the recreational and commuter riders that I know, lance has never had any appeal at all. Flashy self important types have no place in their world. However there are a lot of people who like to r ace and those people wil drive the future of bicycle racing, not its disgraced, so called heroes.

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Good reading there, thanks 'bunny for bringing us up to speed

We should all be prepared to throw some forgiveness Lance's way.. if he goes all out and tells all on the UCI and various sponsors' knowledge and help in cheating. We can't let him be the fall guy for what seems more like an industry of doping. There must be 100's of people involved in some manner.
By all accounts, Lance was the ringleader. He deserves no sympathy and at this point no forgiveness,. I for one won't be satisfied until he is put on trial. His crocodile tears aren't enough. Maybe once he has admitted his guilt in a court of law and done to,e for his crimes, maybe then he can be forgiven. I don't know why he should be given a free pass when those around him have paid enormously for his crimes.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:06 AM   #143
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Stereotype much? Your attitude sucks. You know nothing about me but claim to know that I'm a know nothing American. I'd like an apology.
.
You seem to take offense where none was intended, I was just pointing out that this problem had been going on for decades with the UCI. But that all the attention had been here in old Europe.
The UCI has at this moment the whole sport in a iron grip, that is slowly killing the sport of cycling.
The Tour de France didn't really feature in any English media until Armstrong starting winning.
As a consequence of that most of the articles that have been written are in a foreign language for this forum. Posting one or two articles in a foreign language is one thing,but any more and I'm sure people would complain.

Also please remember English is not my first language therefore mistakes in grammar and word choice will happen from time to time.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 11:46 AM   #144
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Anyone want 7000 Lance Armstrong DVDs?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21145592
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 12:59 AM   #145
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I was just pointing out that this problem had been going on for decades with the UCI. But that all the attention had been here in old Europe.
The UCI has at this moment the whole sport in a iron grip, that is slowly killing the sport of cycling.
This has come up before. Not being a cycling aficionado, I don't know much about UCI. But, I did hear on the radio a couple of days ago that something in the Lance Armstrong expose' might turn out to be a real lead (in the crime sense) that might lead to a proof regarding systematic corruption. Not being an aficionado, I didn't quite get what they were talking about, but, perhaps someone else knows?

----------

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By all accounts, Lance was the ringleader. He deserves no sympathy and at this point no forgiveness,.
Well, a ringleader anyway. From what has come out, it seems like there are so many ringleaders now that the whole era is cast in doubt-- the same as with baseball. And, as with baseball, considering how widespread it all was, you have to wonder how much the owners/sponsors knew or should have known. Lance Armstrong is particularly detestable because of lying about others, but if lots of people at the top knew, then, they are worse than he is.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:24 AM   #146
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Well, a ringleader anyway. From what has come out, it seems like there are so many ringleaders now that the whole era is cast in doubt-- the same as with baseball. And, as with baseball, considering how widespread it all was, you have to wonder how much the owners/sponsors knew or should have known. Lance Armstrong is particularly detestable because of lying about others, but if lots of people at the top knew, then, they are worse than he is.
That's why I'm not as worried as HB is about the imminent demise of pro cycling. The sponsors probably knew what was going on if not actually facilitated it. Obviously if a sponsor did know or assist in some way, they're going to dump cycling like a hot potato. That is not a bad thing. There are a lot of good companies out there that would benefit by a burnished image of cycling. I'm sure once the hullabaloo dies down, a lot of them are going to find that sponsoring a team for the Big Three races, TdF, Giro and Vuelta gives them a lot of exposure.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 03:04 AM   #147
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This has come up before. Not being a cycling aficionado, I don't know much about UCI. But, I did hear on the radio a couple of days ago that something in the Lance Armstrong expose' might turn out to be a real lead (in the crime sense) that might lead to a proof regarding systematic corruption. Not being an aficionado, I didn't quite get what they were talking about, but, perhaps someone else knows?

----------



Well, a ringleader anyway. From what has come out, it seems like there are so many ringleaders now that the whole era is cast in doubt-- the same as with baseball. And, as with baseball, considering how widespread it all was, you have to wonder how much the owners/sponsors knew or should have known. Lance Armstrong is particularly detestable because of lying about others, but if lots of people at the top knew, then, they are worse than he is.
It goes a lot further and deeper than most people thought.
Yesterday the news was given that the 90% of the PDM team had doped in 1988.

So long as the money was coming in UCI did nothing to clean up the sport.

Today all over Europe cycling clubs are having trouble recruiting new younger members.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/repo...tour-de-france


And another team.
Cycling team suspends leader

THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Argos-Shimano cycling team says it has suspended team leader Rudi Kemna for six months after he acknowledged using the banned blood booster EPO during his riding career.

The team said Thursday "Kemna does not want to dodge his own responsibility," and that Kemna considered it "appropriate to be struck off."

The six-month ban is in line with an agreement on sanctions struck earlier this month between the Dutch cycling union and Netherlands' professional teams.

Kemna admitted using EPO in 2003 in an interview published in the latest edition of NUSport Magazine.

http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance/...i-kemna-doping
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 11:03 AM   #148
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Today all over Europe cycling clubs are having trouble recruiting new younger members.
Do you have any proof?
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 02:29 PM   #149
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Do you have any proof?
Armstrong's cheating means great British cycling boom feels rotten

The Gordian knot was the hardest to untie, according to legend. Alexander the Great sliced through it with his sword. There is no such easy solution for cycling and Lance Armstrong.
He cannot simply be excised from the record books, without leaving page after page empty having taken a raft of contemporaries with him. Last week, Christian Prudhomme, head of ASO, the Tour de France organiser, proposed rewriting history to have no winner of the race from 1999 to 2005. Why not just erase Armstrong and promote the next best, some say. Impossible.
If Armstrong goes, all cheats must follow, and for the Tour to remove every name associated with doping would make it seem ridiculous and damage its credibility for ever.

Built on a lie: Lance Armstrong has tainted his whole sport with his use of performance enhancing drugs
For British cycling, the timing of this crisis could not be worse. At the very time when the sport is at last making its great leap forward, 1,000 pages of the most damning criticism land on the doorstep.
A lot of rival sports have dreamed of such progression. Cricket has been vulnerable as the primary summer sport for some time. Parts of the island do not play it, participation is time consuming and costly, land is at a premium.
Football has the winter tied up, we know that. England were rugby union world champions in 2003, but nobody seriously believed inroads could be made on football’s territory.
With cricket, it is different. England rose to be the No 1 Test team in the world but it had little impact on the grass roots. Cricket is dying in state schools, the county game is dwindling in significance. Football has been steadily encroaching on the summer, too.
Then came Bradley Wiggins in the Tour de France and Great Britain’s magnificent performance in the Velodrome at a home Olympics. Suddenly, we were a nation of cyclists. Every kid has a bike and road to ride it on, and in Wiggins the sport has a bona fide, David Beckham-style hero.
He has the talent, he has the look. He captures young imaginations. Look around, there are more cyclists on the road than ever before. Not just commuters in cities, either. There are races, there are clubs, there are grown men pedalling while wearing Team Sky kit, as they might the shirt of Manchester United.


And now this. Page after page of cheats, cheats, cheats. No wonder Wiggins is furious that his first task as cycling’s unofficial ambassador in Britain is to try to convince the parents of the next generation that his sport will not turn their children into EPO-fuelled monsters.
Trying to unpick Armstrong and his era from cycling is akin to unknotting that tangled ball of old computer leads, mobile-phone chargers and television cables that lurks in a dark corner of a kitchen drawer, except one hundred times worse.
For instance, reassessing two of Armstrong’s victories, 2000 and 2002, and removing every rider who has been caught doping or been significantly implicated in a scandal — one must remember here that many known cheats have not failed a test, including Armstrong — would mean promoting two 10th-placed athletes to first: Daniele Nardello in 2000 and Carlos Sastre in 2002.
The clean winners of the Tour de France in the Armstrong years would be: Abraham Olano (1999, sixth), Nardello (2000, 10th), Andrei Kivilev (2001, fourth), Sastre (2002, 10th), Haimar Zubeldia (2003, fifth), Sastre (2004, eighth) and Cadel Evans (2005, seventh). Throughout those years only two untainted athletes made the top five.
It cuts deeper. L’Alpe d’Huez is arguably the most famous mountain climb in the Tour de France. It is an average 7.9 per cent gradient with 21 hairpin bends. In 1986, the great French rider Bernard Hinault — ‘as long as I breathe, I attack’ — rode the ascent in 48 minutes. His now stands as the 36th fastest time. The record is held by the late Marco Pantani from 1997: it is 10 minutes and 25 seconds faster.

Golden boy: Bradley Wiggins has inspired a generation of British cyclists with his double success in the Tour de France and the London Olympic Games


Sometimes, the numbers simply do not add up. There was huge controversy over Chinese swimmer Ye Shiwen at the London Olympics, and many thought it unfair that she was immediately suspected, without evidence.
Yet it wasn’t just laymen or journalists questioning Ye. Respected coaches, looking at the figures in detail, were first to raise the alarm.
So, analysing Pantani, even allowing for improvements in equipment and training techniques, to take 10 minutes off a 48-minute event is close to impossible. Some of L’Alpe d’Huez’s fastest times have been set as part of a time trial, when the athlete hasn’t already cycled 100 miles to get there. To shave three minutes off Hinault in those circumstances might be explicable. But 10? No way. And cycling, in the years cited by Prudhomme, is full of these freaks’ roll calls.


To erase Armstrong, the sport would as good as erase itself for a decade or more. The year before Armstrong’s 1999 win, the top 10 in the Tour included three riders who tested positive (including the first and second finishers) and another imprisoned for violating anti-doping laws. Of the six remaining, two more have been implicated in scandals. The two successive winners after Armstrong’s last victory in 2005, Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador, were subsequently disqualified.
The problem for cycling in Britain is that its status as a profile sport first began to take shape through Armstrong. From there, home-grown heroes such as Wiggins, Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton took cycling to a place in public life that previous generations could never have imagined.
So, with the condemnation of Armstrong, it is the very foundation of the British cycling boom that appears to be rotten. Unlike the French or Belgians, we have no prior history or culture to cling to, no glorious golden era free of EPO and clandestine blood transfusions.
Instead of promoting a sport full of fresh air and fitness, Wiggins and his colleagues are now on the defensive. It is hardly a surprise that he has been known to snap at questions about doping.
It is the last topic that should be regularly tossed at him as a clean rider, the last conversation his sport needs to be having right now; yet if cycling is to fulfil its potential it must first find a way of removing its links to Armstrong on page after page.
It will take a lot more than Tipp-Ex, or a visit to the printers

Trying to convince parents that the sport is not dirty is hurting the sport at the grass roots.

Read this list of doping cases from the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ses_in_cycling


Pound says IOC may drop cycling from Olympics on Armstrong confession
Amid speculation that Lance Armstrong may implicate the International Cycling Union in helping to cover up his years of doping, International Olympic Committee member Richard "Dick" Pound has speculated that cycling's position in the Olympic programme could be at risk if this is shown to be the case.

"The IOC would have to deal with it, the [UCI] is not known for its strong actions to anti-doping," Pound said to Reuters.

The former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency has had a long history of conflict with the UCI's former president Hein Verbruggen and the Dutchman's replacement, Pat McQuaid. Pound was highly critical of the UCI's anti-doping efforts in light of the massive doping scandals that rocked the sport, from Festina to Operacion Puerto and more recently in relation to the USADA case against Armstrong.

The pair filed a defamation suit against Pound in 2008 after the Canadian's tenure as head of WADA ended, but the suit was settled a year later.

Since then, McQuaid has joined Pound as an IOC member on equal footing. When asked by Cyclingnews in London last year if the Armstrong case could jeopardize cycling's place in the Games, McQuaid responded, "it's not going to have any effect on cycling. If guys are beating the system, they're beating WADA's system, they're beating the controls. The UCI can't do anything about that."

The cycling events in London were some of the most popular, best attended events of the 2012 Olympic Games.

However, the USADA reasoned decision has taken the UCI to task for its knowledge of the doping situation in the sport and its failure to act appropriately. Whether or not the upcoming interview with Armstrong will shed more light on the level of involvement of the UCI in any cover-up remains to be seen. However, Pound clearly believes that dropping cycling from the Olympics is the only way to pressure the sport to clean up.

"The only way it is going to clean up is if all these people say 'hey, we're no longer in the Olympics and that's where we want to be so let's earn our way back into it,'" Pound said to Reuters.

However, such drastic action would most certainly be more damaging to the categories of the sport who benefit the least from the UCI, namely women's road cycling and track cycling.

"It was the same in weightlifting a few years ago, all of a sudden when you get right up against it things go fuzzy and they say, 'well, we can't punish innocent athletes in these sports by dropping the sport from the program,'" Pound said.

The current IOC president Jacques Rogge has supported cycling through its rocky times, but his current term ends in September, 2013, and he is not eligible for another run. According to McQuaid, the IOC is due to vote one sport out of the Summer Olympic Games before the next edition in Rio de Janiero in 2016.

This is my last words on this topic as you seem to believe that cycling has got no problems, and I know that it is sick as ****. I do hope they can put their house in order, but after more than thirty years of lies and corruption I believe it when I see it.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:54 PM   #150
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Bill Burr has a funny and interesting take on Lance and the doping fiasco.

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