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Old Apr 26, 2013, 07:31 AM   #51
samiwas
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In the United States, there are 381 bridges that are privately owned that are considered "structurally deficient" and another 723 owned by railroads. Is it enough to say that 1,000 bridges are structurally deficient or do I really have to dig through the data tables and find a specific bridge?
You're arguing with eric/...you know the answer to that.

I came across a website called, bridgehunter.com, and they have a category for "owned by railroad", which I assume would mean "privately-owned". Here are a couple of "typical private bridges":




Over 4,000 bridges in that category alone, and they are most certainly not all tiny slabs of concrete over a stream for a single car to drive over.

The previous assertion was that there were 732 railroad bridges that are structurally deficient. Around 4,000 documented railroad bridges, so let's say a total of 5,000. That would mean almost 15%. That's not good.

EDIT: I should add that of those 4,000 bridges listed, not all are in active use. Does the 732 deficient bridges include those not in active use, or only active ones? That would bring the percentage even higher.
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Old Apr 27, 2013, 04:23 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
You're arguing with eric/...you know the answer to that...
I do.

Quote:
...The previous assertion was that there were 732 railroad bridges that are structurally deficient. Around 4,000 documented railroad bridges, so let's say a total of 5,000. That would mean almost 15%. That's not good.

EDIT: I should add that of those 4,000 bridges listed, not all are in active use. Does the 732 deficient bridges include those not in active use, or only active ones? That would bring the percentage even higher.
The NIBS has a field for "structurally obsolete" which would be bridges that aren't being used anymore. I'd have to check on that and dig through the data, though I don't think I can put that much work into a PRSI argument.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post

Here's a typical private bridge:

Image
As I stated above, you cannot compare this bridge with the I-35. The ability to care for a bridge that carries a single automobile over a short span is a fundamentally different bridge than the one that carries millions of pounds of traffic in a single day, spans a river, and must last for more than a generation.

However, I do enjoy that the picture illustrates my point quite well. That bridge has a failure in the steel structure beneath, a bent guard rail, and a serious erosion problem on one side. That bridge should be (may be) condemned. So, if private individuals can't take care of this bridge, nor larger bridges, how can you expect that the I-35 wouldn't have failed? The logic entirely disagrees with you.
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Old Apr 27, 2013, 05:38 PM   #53
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just to add this, the chicago skyway is private owned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ChicagoSkyway1104.jpg

The National Bridge Inventory lists roughly 2,200 privately owned highway bridges in 41 states and Puerto Rico.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private..._United_States


Quote:
Originally Posted by samiwas View Post
You're arguing with eric/...you know the answer to that.

I came across a website called, bridgehunter.com, and they have a category for "owned by railroad", which I assume would mean "privately-owned". Here are a couple of "typical private bridges":

Image Image
Image

Over 4,000 bridges in that category alone, and they are most certainly not all tiny slabs of concrete over a stream for a single car to drive over.

The previous assertion was that there were 732 railroad bridges that are structurally deficient. Around 4,000 documented railroad bridges, so let's say a total of 5,000. That would mean almost 15%. That's not good.

EDIT: I should add that of those 4,000 bridges listed, not all are in active use. Does the 732 deficient bridges include those not in active use, or only active ones? That would bring the percentage even higher.
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Old Apr 27, 2013, 07:59 PM   #54
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This could be what happens when you get rid of regulations or refuse to enforce them.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 03:20 AM   #55
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Goodhair is a bit upset about this




He wants the cartoonist to apologize
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 07:48 AM   #56
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This could be what happens when you get rid of regulations or refuse to enforce them.
...or have crappy zoning laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydde View Post
Goodhair is a bit upset about this




He wants the cartoonist to apologize
How appropriate (the cartoon, not the apology).
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 08:20 AM   #57
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...or have crappy zoning laws.
The zoning has nothing to do with why the plant exploded. People are hung up on that for some stupid reason. People still would have died if there was nothing developed within miles of there.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 10:05 AM   #58
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People are hung up on that for some stupid reason. People still would have died if there was nothing developed within miles of there.
I don't know why you think that's a stupid subject.

Yes. People would have died if there was nothing developed within miles.

But more people die and more destruction is be wrought when there is development within a short distance.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 11:45 AM   #59
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I don't know why you think that's a stupid subject.

Yes. People would have died if there was nothing developed within miles.

But more people die and more destruction is be wrought when there is development within a short distance.
I think it's a stupid subject because the explosion was not caused by zoning laws.

Should that type of property be that close? Nope.

Is zoning the issue here? Nope. The issue is whatever failed to allow the place to explode. Complaining about zoning laws is wanting to treat the symptom and not the issue.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 12:04 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by gsugolfer View Post
I think it's a stupid subject because the explosion was not caused by zoning laws.

Should that type of property be that close? Nope.

Is zoning the issue here? Nope. The issue is whatever failed to allow the place to explode. Complaining about zoning laws is wanting to treat the symptom and not the issue.
It is not a stupid subject. Like the gasoline distribution industry, this kind of chemical distribution is usually through a bunch of small, intermediary companies. Sue the company? Sure, but, they usually have minimal assets compared to the losses.

Plants like this are another instance of an accident waiting to happen. It doesn't make sense to allow schools and residential neighborhoods to be built in proximity to such plants because accidents happen, and, the distributors are usually too small to pay for the damage. Zoning laws are one way to limit the damage. Zoning wouldn't have prevented the fire and explosion but it would have prevented the fire and explosion in the middle of a residential neighborhood.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 12:05 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by gsugolfer View Post
I think it's a stupid subject because the explosion was not caused by zoning laws.

Should that type of property be that close? Nope.

Is zoning the issue here? Nope. The issue is whatever failed to allow the place to explode. Complaining about zoning laws is wanting to treat the symptom and not the issue.
While I don't agree with your analogy, you do realize that when regarding diseases, you need to treat both the symptoms and the cause, right? Not every disease can be prevented, and thus, you must seek palliative care and ease the symptoms.

I think it's clear there were two causes to why this disaster killed and injured so many people: 1. Whatever caused the plant to destruct. 2. Inept zoning laws.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 12:06 PM   #62
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I think it's a stupid subject because the explosion was not caused by zoning laws.
I certainly hope nobody has tried to argue that zoning laws caused the explosion.

That would be highly irrational.

Zoning laws contributed to the damage to structures and human casualties of those living nearby.

A brief look into ammonium nitrate explosions reveals a history of incidents that have caused tremendous death and destruction, including the Texas City Disaster, said to be the deadlest industrial disaster in U.S. history.

When ammonium nitrate goes, it can go big and fast.

Seems like something to zone for.
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 04:16 PM   #63
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When ammonium nitrate goes, it can go big and fast.

Seems like something to zone for.
Thing is, I have seen numerous instances of groups of train cars carrying anhydrous ammonia right through the middle of the town I lived in. That is some pretty nasty stuff on its own, as evidenced by the heavy crash-frame they put around the tank. How do you zone rail traffic? Or trucks, for that matter?
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Old Apr 28, 2013, 07:37 PM   #64
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* Anhydrous ammonia and water don't play nice

* There's some discussion that the West VFD put water onto the fire, which may have sparked the blast

* There's also a movement to allow anyone, with no training whatsoever, to be, and continue to be, a volunteer firefighter in Texas: link

This just boggles the mind.

"We just want to be ignorant hicks here" - is that what they're trying to say? Because that's the message coming across.
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Old Apr 29, 2013, 09:45 AM   #65
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There's also a movement to allow anyone, with no training whatsoever, to be, and continue to be, a volunteer firefighter in Texas: link

This just boggles the mind.

"We just want to be ignorant hicks here" - is that what they're trying to say? Because that's the message coming across.
Texas seems to be embarking on an experiment in "Extreme Libertarianism". (Like Extreme Sports.) I won't consider Texas serious about it, though, until they make legal for anyone to practice Law and Medicine.
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Old Apr 30, 2013, 09:48 AM   #66
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* Anhydrous ammonia and water don't play nice

* There's some discussion that the West VFD put water onto the fire, which may have sparked the blast

* There's also a movement to allow anyone, with no training whatsoever, to be, and continue to be, a volunteer firefighter in Texas: link

This just boggles the mind.

"We just want to be ignorant hicks here" - is that what they're trying to say? Because that's the message coming across.
Stupid is as stupid does... maybe they think it costs too much?

I was a volunteer fireman when I was going to high school (Upper Marlboro, Md, early 1970s). You could join and participate without training, but there was required training. I took a 3 day first aid course, which from my understanding as evolved into a much more in-depth paramedic course for manning an ambulance. And I had to take a weekend course dealing using the equipment, respirators, etc and navigating smoky buildings.
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Old May 6, 2013, 08:41 AM   #67
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Sad for those who lost everything there. Must be the free market at work.


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McALLEN, Texas The Texas fertilizer plant that exploded last month, killing 14 people, injuring more than 200 others and causing tens of millions of dollars in damage to the surrounding area had only $1 million in liability coverage, lawyers said Saturday.
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