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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:27 PM   #76
bradl
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I have family members who work(ed) in law enforcement. You're all way off-base.
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Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post
So do I, a formally close cousin.
So do I; my father. And no, they are not off-base. Especially in recent times (read: last 90 days) in which Four Omaha Police officers were fired for their abuse of power and cover up in the arrest of 3 brothers, which was videotaped.

This is my hometown, with my father having worked for that very same police department. It can happen anywhere, and happens a bit more than you realize.

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Old Jun 20, 2013, 03:36 PM   #77
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So some police officers don't abuse their position of power?
You're reaching. That isn't what I disputed.

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Four Omaha Police officers were fired for their abuse of power and cover up in the arrest of 3 brothers, which was videotaped.

This is my hometown, with my father having worked for that very same police department. It can happen anywhere, and happens a bit more than you realize.
Oh, I never denied that it happened. I simply disputed the claim that all people who go into law enforcement are compelled to do so because they enjoy power (as stated by GermanyChris), or even that a good number of them join because of power (as stated by MacNut). You've cited an example of four officers (out of how many in this country?) who've abused their power. Surely there are others. I don't believe for a minute that it's a majority, or even a "large number."
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:19 PM   #78
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You're reaching. That isn't what I disputed.
Sure it is.

Because I said some police abuse power and some don't.

To which you replied "you're all way off-base".

Perhaps you were mistaken to include my post when you replied as such.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:46 PM   #79
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Sure it is.

Because I said some police abuse power and some don't.

To which you replied "you're all way off-base".

Perhaps you were mistaken to include my post when you replied as such.
You also addressed that LE officers "thirst" for power. I don't think there's enough of a factual basis for such a claim; I believe it's rare, at best.

I've never disputed the existence of cops who abuse their power.
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Last edited by Tomorrow; Jun 20, 2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: not worth it
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 04:54 PM   #80
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You also addressed that LE officers "thirst" for power. I don't think there's enough of a factual basis for such a claim; I believe it's rare, at best.

I've never disputed the existence of cops who abuse their power.
I think there is enough reports of abuse that it's quite common from the cop who speeds to the cop who beats people. in the past it wasn't reported because it wan't provable now everyone and their sister has a phone with and HD camera and we're seeing police abuse in HD frequently.

I guarantee that if cops couldn't carry a gun and wear a silly badge in public there would be much fewer cops.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 05:10 PM   #81
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You're function under the assumption that cops tend to be good and decent, we do not share that assumption. That fact that someone desires to be a cop speaks against their character in the first place.
I think that's a stretch. Certainly, there are cadets today that want to go into law enforcement for reasons beyond power. What about helicopter pilots or rescue unit members? Do you think that someone applying to the LAPD is the same person who applies to be a Park Ranger?

What about soldiers? Is there a single unified reason to join the service?

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I think there is enough reports of abuse that it's quite common from the cop who speeds to the cop who beats people. in the past it wasn't reported because it wan't provable now everyone and their sister has a phone with and HD camera and we're seeing police abuse in HD frequently.
The structure of police work tends to bureaucratize people and puts them in a us vs. them mentality that often creates a space for corruption, but I don't think corruption is inherent to the people who want to become police officers.

There are nearly 795,000 law enforcement officers in the United States. Even if 1,000 of them do something awful every year, we're still talking about a small number by percentage.

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...I guarantee that if cops couldn't carry a gun and wear a silly badge in public there would be much fewer cops.
It's certainly the authority, but what's more important is the use of the authority and the lack of checks and balances against it. If officers are allowed to be corrupt, they will be corrupt. This is why some agencies, like the LAPD, are constantly in trouble.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 05:12 PM   #82
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You also addressed that LE officers "thirst" for power. I don't think there's enough of a factual basis for such a claim; I believe it's rare, at best.
Actually it was you who brought that up.

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So you feel all LE officers are thirsty for power? Which they would presumably then abuse?
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Some may abuse it, some may not.

Having a thirst does not compel one to drink.
By saying that "thirst does not compel one to drink" I was suggesting (perhaps too cryptically) that one can have a desire for power, yet still not give in to it.

I was actually arguing for not seeing all LE as motivated simply by the desire for power.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 05:42 PM   #83
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I think that's a stretch. Certainly, there are cadets today that want to go into law enforcement for reasons beyond power. What about helicopter pilots or rescue unit members? Do you think that someone applying to the LAPD is the same person who applies to be a Park Ranger?

What about soldiers? Is there a single unified reason to join the service?



The structure of police work tends to bureaucratize people and puts them in a us vs. them mentality that often creates a space for corruption, but I don't think corruption is inherent to the people who want to become police officers.

There are nearly 795,000 law enforcement officers in the United States. Even if 1,000 of them do something awful every year, we're still talking about a small number by percentage.



It's certainly the authority, but what's more important is the use of the authority and the lack of checks and balances against it. If officers are allowed to be corrupt, they will be corrupt. This is why some agencies, like the LAPD, are constantly in trouble.
I knew someone would bring that up(I'm much too open to repudiation on this one), I should have figured it was you..

Soldiers fight and deal with equals meaning armed men with the intent of doing harm i.e. not defenseless . Police are for a vast majority of time dealing people who are defenseless, and trained to obey authority.

Having said that a fairly large minority of soldiers go on to become police officers. Those people are IMHO looking for identity and the team they left. It gives them a chance to unwind if you will it's sort of a halfway house a step I don't have the courage to make. Not all soldiers are good obviously to the police corps will get their share military ****** head along with their civilian counterparts.

When there is potential for violence it'll be an us v. them, or a dehumanizing of the them which makes it OK to do violence.

The problem is when you enforce the law something as simple as speeding becomes abuse.

Cops have checks just like soldiers do the issue is those checks are never in the field at the time of the abuse it's always after.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 05:56 PM   #84
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I knew someone would bring that up(I'm much too open to repudiation on this one), I should have figured it was you..
I hope you think it was a fair question. I know people who will argue that everyone who joins the service likes violence and I think it's an equally unfair point. Some people join the service because they want to "blow **** up and kill people" but others just want to fly airplanes, and others just want to pay for college.

With police, I think there's a pretty big range of why people join the force and many of the police officers that I've talked to are community-minded, but strict moralists.

They're not really interested in power. The ones I've scared of are the "masters of the universe" MBA students, who seem power-hungry and dangerous in the way that someone who wants to keep drug dealers out of their old neighborhood are not.

Though, I think power corrupts either way.

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...Soldiers fight and deal with equals meaning armed men with the intent of doing harm i.e. not defenseless . Police are for a vast majority of time dealing people who are defenseless, and trained to obey authority.

Having said that a fairly large minority of soldiers go on to become police officers. Those people are IMHO looking for identity and the team they left. It gives them a chance to unwind if you will it's sort of a halfway house a step I don't have the courage to make. Not all soldiers are good obviously to the police corps will get their share military ****** head along with their civilian counterparts.
Yeah, the number of Border Patrol officers are post-military and I'm not sure if this is a good thing because the para-military quality of CBP may make it harder for former soldiers to shift away from their wartime experience.

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...Cops have checks just like soldiers do the issue is those checks are never in the field at the time of the abuse it's always after.
That's an interesting point and one I hadn't thought of before, while police are often in contact with their sergeants and/or HQ, they don't have the field supervision that comes with being in a platoon or company.
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Old Jun 20, 2013, 06:13 PM   #85
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I hope you think it was a fair question. I know people who will argue that everyone who joins the service likes violence and I think it's an equally unfair point. Some people join the service because they want to "blow **** up and kill people" but others just want to fly airplanes, and others just want to pay for college.

With police, I think there's a pretty big range of why people join the force and many of the police officers that I've talked to are community-minded, but strict moralists.

They're not really interested in power. The ones I've scared of are the "masters of the universe" MBA students, who seem power-hungry and dangerous in the way that someone who wants to keep drug dealers out of their old neighborhood are not.

Though, I think power corrupts either way.




Yeah, the number of Border Patrol officers are post-military and I'm not sure if this is a good thing because the para-military quality of CBP may make it harder for former soldiers to shift away from their wartime experience.



That's an interesting point and one I hadn't thought of before, while police are often in contact with their sergeants and/or HQ, they don't have the field supervision that comes with being in a platoon or company.
My issue there is soldier is guy with a gun v guy with a gun with cops it's a vast majority of the time it's guy with a gun v guy with no gun, there is no equilibrium of real or perceived power.

I have a pretty outsized ego because of my past and current situation, maybe thats why I see fault in cops but not soldiers I don't consider them equals. I'm probably not a fair judge so maybe I should just be mum on his until the morning.
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