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Old Jul 31, 2013, 06:54 AM   #26
Menel
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There's a chance all the new iPhone's have NFC, for this purpose. The Plastic and the Metal models.

However; considering Apple's previous stance, and this statement from the article suggests otherwise
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By working on the iPhone, Isis is indicating that it’s expanding beyond a technology called near-field communication (NFC), which hasn’t taken off as expected.
Isis is going to support Passbook.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 07:38 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by PollyK View Post
Wow, so sad to see Apple in this position where they're always playing catch up.
Catch up? Adding NFC to the iPhone will be what makes NFC go mainstream at retail locations.

Look at all the Android phones that have NFC and how few locations are equipped to take advantage of NFC. My HTC One has NFC and I can't even use it because Google Wallet is blocked or doesn't work or whatever!

I bet as soon as NFC is added to iPhone, companies will be lining up to add NFC capabilities to their cash registers.

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Old Jul 31, 2013, 07:46 AM   #28
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No point in Apple investing in NFC because it's not standard. There's no point. It would be stupid for them to have put NFC in the 3GS, for instance. Nobody bloody uses NFC. If, gradually, more shops worldwide accepted the format, then Apple would.
The reality is that some parts of Europe and the Asian markets have perfected the NFC technology and are way ahead of the American market. In fact, it's our country that needs to catch up to those guys and this explains why NFC has been trickling in the western hemisphere recently.

Otherwise, NFC has already been perfected, so you should ask yourself why Apple was waiting so long to do it. Why wait when a certain tech has been perfected?

It's NOT that they're waiting for it to be perfected, they're angling to PROFIT off it. They're waiting to EXPLOIT NFC for their benefit. Behind closed doors, they're going " Hmm...how do we make money off this? Look at all the gas stations, cafes, and store fronts! Look at how Japan's got NFC down to a T! How do we get a LEAD on this one? ".

Problem: They can't. It's too late because, it seems to me, NFC is standardized by a consortium of companies.

NFC is already here, believe it or not. But it seems ironic that Apple is afraid of going the NFC route due to some security issues and yet you have the CIA/NSA/PRISM situation that happened.

Here's a little NFC history for you and APPLE is not in it going all the way back to 1983:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:05 AM   #29
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Nobody bloody uses NFC. If, gradually, more shops worldwide accepted the format, then Apple would.

Obviously you've never been to countries like South Korea or Japan. It's extremely useful there.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:09 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by keysofanxiety View Post
No point in Apple investing in NFC because it's not standard. There's no point. It would be stupid for them to have put NFC in the 3GS, for instance. Nobody bloody uses NFC. If, gradually, more shops worldwide accepted the format, then Apple would.
I think a lot of people are actually not aware that they are currently using NFC in some form if they are using rechargeable smart cards with public transport systems. The majority of those systems are using either NFC or they are at least NFC-compatible. Also, in europe it's quite common to see NFC compatible pay terminals in stores and quite recently both Visa and Mastercard have been adding NFC chips to their new credit/debit cards, so it's quite wrong to say that "Nobody uses NFC".
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:11 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim1099 View Post
Here's a little NFC history for you and APPLE is not in it going all the way back to 1983:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_field_communication
Point taken. But again, why is it so important for Apple to adopt NFC?

In all honesty I don't care if they decide to adopt until it's used everywhere. That's better for me as a consumer, because I'll have a new feature on my phone that is guaranteed to be useful rather than along with 'first movers'.

And if Apple do move first (MiniDisplay & Thunderbolt comes to mind), critics scoff that Apple didn't adopt a particularly widely used technology.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:14 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by keysofanxiety View Post
Rubbish. Apple don't just chuck in new technologies for the sake of it. As other people said, they wait for it to be widely adopted, or perfect the technology before putting it into their products.

IMHO, it's sad to see other manufacturers in a position where they don't take any pride in their product, and have a mentality of chucking stuff on a wall to see what sticks.
I agree with your first statement, and I mostly agree with your second statement.... However, that doesn't always apply. In this particular example of NFC, if NO ONE started using the technology it would never take off. Sometimes you have to chuck stuff at the wall just to get the ball rolling.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:22 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by keysofanxiety View Post
Yes, I do praise Apple for waiting until a third-party technology is well developed and released, because they want to make the best products possible. There are plenty of examples where they haven't done that. Multi-touch, although previously developed, wasn't commonplace in phones or technology in general; they spent a good few years perfecting it with the UI for the iPhone and then releasing that.

Not to mention when they did things such as standardise USB in the first iMac -- heck, I'm still seeing modern computers come with PS2 ports for mouse & keyboard.

It's not a case of Apple piggy-backing on other people's innovations, not at all. But if there's a new technology just released, what's the point in putting it into their products if it won't be useful in commonplace scenarios? As SJ once said, the hardest part is to decide what not to put in your product, otherwise you'll end up with a product that does everything but excels in nothing.

Please let me know if you want me to clarify any points.
I don't know where you get the idea that Apple waits for the technology to develop or become more widely adopted. Take a look at thunderbolt. Apple was one of the first to use the technology and I don't see it really taking off because for one it's not really affordable to most people. Not very good timing if you ask me, but what do I care.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:25 AM   #34
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I don't know where you get the idea that Apple waits for the technology to develop or become more widely adopted. Take a look at thunderbolt. Apple was one of the first to use the technology and I don't see it really taking off because for one it's not really affordable to most people. Not very good timing if you ask me, but what do I care.
Yes but Thunderbolt has a professional connotation. IMHO, something that consumers will often use, such as NFC, requires further adoption before Apple are willing to put it into their device. iPhones are so widely used, after all.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 08:30 AM   #35
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There is not going to be any NFC Chip in the iPhone for now. The reason is lack of space for it, and the fact that Apple don't believe in NFC. Apple is betting on Bluetooth 4.0, also called Bluetooth Low Energy or Bluetooth Smart.

Bluetooth 4.0 can be used in the same way as NFC, but also in a lot of ways that NFC can not. Apple will therefore hold off on trying to incorporate a NFC chip in the iPhone.
Case in point - look at the article from a day or two ago about using an iPhone or iPad to instantly set up a new AppleTV just by "touching" it with the device. This presumably uses low energy Bluetooth to essentially mimic NFC capability.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 10:42 AM   #36
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I don't know where you get the idea that Apple waits for the technology to develop or become more widely adopted. Take a look at thunderbolt. Apple was one of the first to use the technology and I don't see it really taking off because for one it's not really affordable to most people. Not very good timing if you ask me, but what do I care.
They don't always wait for a technology. In Thunderbolts case it could be used right away with their own products such as Cinema displays. It does take a while for third party products to support it but now it has over 50+ products and growing.

Adoption & Pricing of Thunderbolt has more to do around the professional & Semipro gear. Thunderbolt gear tends to be more expensive as most is geared toward the Pro realm rather than the average consumer who has USB 2.0/3.0.

NFC on the other hand is more dependant on adoption by retailers which is an added cost. Last time I checked world wide adoption was somewhere 8% but now could be somewhere more like 10%-12%
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:16 PM   #37
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So, if every company does what you're saying Apple is doing, no technology would be developed.....
I hear what you're saying, but it is imho a calculated cost/benefit risk. By waiting for greater market maturity, a company can bring a more useful, better developed product to market. On the flipside, they risk missing a window of opportunity, to be first out of the gate, and possibly missing out on greater marketshare.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 03:43 PM   #38
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Wow, so sad to see Apple in this position where they're always playing catch up.
Catching up? Apple wont release a product or service that sucks. Anyone else would. I think Apple will obliterate all competition with the 5s, which will be the only mobile platform (iOS 7) secure enough and with specific features designed for mobile wallet use (individual fingerprint recognition). If you don't agree, good for you. I don't want billions of critical people owning my dream phone anyway.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 06:33 PM   #39
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but the iphone doesn't even have an NFC chip, are the iphone 5s and 5c gonna offer the NFC chip?
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 06:54 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by PollyK View Post
Wow, so sad to see Apple in this position where they're always playing catch up.
Polly, grab a cracker. Its more useful for you.

----------

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Originally Posted by Oletros View Post
I think that you're not understanding what I'm asking or I can't explain it.
Actually, you are the confused one. He gets it Ole.
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Old Jul 31, 2013, 10:49 PM   #41
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Thanks for the answer.

Here lies one of the problems, I think people here tend to see that as Apple versus and I was not talking about Apple, Microsoft, Samsung or any company in particular, I was just talking about the concept.

I agree that there has to be a balance between being first and waiting to release so my astonishment when people bash companies for releasing a technology (the "chucking stuff on a wall to see what sticks." comment) and praising other for waiting.
LOL!! Seems as though these guys actually believe you mean that! Good job! Most skillful.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 11:41 AM   #42
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The chips have been available for quite some time. My guess is APPLE has deliberately held off on this technology, waiting for wider adoption. Timing is everything, and until there is the underlying infrastructure, necessary to make payment via NFC an option that has been adopted by a reasonably large percentage of the industry in general, and retailers in particular, introduction of this tech by APPLE in their hardware, would have been a disappointing experience for those of us sporting iOS devices with such technology.
My Thunderbolt equipped Mac without USB3 and I agree.

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Old Aug 1, 2013, 06:27 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Oletros View Post
This point, for example.

What happens when all the companies do that?
You really don't understand the different roles being played by theoretical researchers, experimental labs, individual technology implementors and consumer product integrators, do you?!!

Apple, as a company at the end of that pipe, is holding no-one's back if it waits till the individual technology implementors are well prepared for prime time.

On the other hand, those consumer products companies pushing in raw or half-baked gradients and making big deal about those gradients are simply playing game with their customers.

----------

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It isn't an all-or-nothing proposition. Sometimes Apple is among the first to adopt a technology (eg capacitive touchscreen, multi-touch, high-resolution smartphone screens). Other times they wait for technology to mature (3G, LTE, NFC). It doesn't always make sense to be a first mover. Being successful in a fast-moving industry like technology requires striking a balance. Push something out too quickly and you risk a poor user experience, security issues, or added cost. Wait too long and you risk losing customers. Neither Apple nor Samsung (the only two companies making serious money in mobile devices right now) are consistently first movers or late movers. Samsung tends to adopt certain technologies more quickly (wireless standards, NFC) but isn't always first and tends to use more conservative designs (eg they use simpler case designs such as polycarbonate throughout their product line). Apple has been an early adopter of mobile graphics technologies, has been more aggressive in customizing ARM chips, and pushes engineering and manufacturing design processes to their limits. On the other hand, they tend to wait for baseband, wireless protocol, and more ancillary technologies to mature.
Good explanation, except for the final summary. A clearer explanation is that Apple pioneers in areas that can survive / succeed without an industrial-wise standard, and wait for up-stream maturity on things only make sense when the whole industry supports it.
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Old Aug 1, 2013, 07:15 PM   #44
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finally, a way i'll be able to use the NFC technology!
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Old Aug 8, 2013, 02:28 AM   #45
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Apple pioneers in areas that can survive / succeed without an industrial-wise standard, and wait for up-stream maturity on things only make sense when the whole industry supports it.
Really? All those display connectors? FireWire (launched when there was almost no support)? Netbooting (who has ever used it)? Premature withdrawal of optical drives, and earlier of 3.5" floppy disk drives? The perverted form of OpenFirmware?

Was it really necessary to delay 4G until everyone else had it? Was there any doubt by 2011 that LTE would defeat HSPA/+?

Apple’s decisions can taint the entire iOS/iPhone ecosystem because it is the only maker of iOS devices. If the result is not as useful as what’s available on Android, one must either tolerate it or leave. I did the latter.

Specifically, regarding NFC, I see readers for it everywhere here in the Boston area, in supermarkets, gas stations and other stores. It is damn convenient whereas none of the competing technologies are (except Bluetooth 4, which is undeployed and therefore unknown). It just works, to borrow a phrase. As others have pointed out, in some large economies NFC has a much higher penetration. What constitutes an adequate level of acceptance at which Apple’s lack of support should be recognized as backwardness? 100% in the U.S., as happened with 4G?

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Old Aug 13, 2013, 04:38 AM   #46
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NFC vs Bluetooth 4.0

Bluetooth and NFC are not comparable in terms of use cases: Bluetooth has a transmission range of up to 50 metres, as NFC works within some cm!

Imagine several smartphone users around a cash desk. The only secure and simple way to get the right smartphone for the payment is by tapping it on a payment device. Theoretically, with bluetooth, all users could have access to the payment device at once (and with a fingeprint sensor combined to bluetooth, there is still an open question about which smartphone should be connected for payement).

Tapping (by using NFC) is so intuitive and simple, no need of PIN code for pairing the devices. NFC combined with fingerprint sensor would allow perfect and most simple way to do payments (NFC for transaction, fingerprint to be sure that the smartphone is used by it's legal owner), and all this without using any pincodes or other onscreen actions!

Therefore, I think it's just a matter of time when Apple will introduce this device, and personally I think it would make much sense to introduce it on the next Iphone Generation.

And I agree, Apple will not introduce NFC, if there is no business case behind, but several announcements in different countries about introduction of NFC payment systems could accelerate Apple's decision!
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