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Old Sep 19, 2013, 03:17 PM   #226
hulugu
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I thought you were talking about my quote from Citizen. Sorry about that.

But there are statistics on the web about the US and how quickly we get access to healthcare compared to other countries.

I know....link is not good because its Fox News right?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...re-in-america/
Well, I'm not so sure about an opinion piece from Fox News, but the data from OECD is interesting.

However, an important question remains, if US healthcare is so good why would expanding the insurance pool disrupt it? Is US healthcare only good because a nearly 50 million can't afford it?

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...US system good or bad...it is about to get worse....much worse. It gripes me that there are these exemptions. People who crammed the stuff down our throats are even exempt. If it isn't good enough for them then it isn't good enough for me
What exemptions are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Thanks for the information. Was going off the list from my local news the other night, and many in the govt were listed, but was also referring to the union as much as anything here as they also showed that they now are exempt. Let me know if this is not accurate.
Oh. Yeah, that's not true.

You might want to see if that list is online and post it because I'm pretty sure it's wrong.
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 03:38 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Thanks for the information. Was going off the list from my local news the other night, and many in the govt were listed, but was also referring to the union as much as anything here as they also showed that they now are exempt. Let me know if this is not accurate.
It's a bit off-topic and a meta discussion-y, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to be able to discuss these topics with someone who doesn't hold the same political beliefs, yet still maintains a pleasant tone to their posts.

I know how hard it is sometimes to keep it civil and not take these things too seriously and I just wanted to say "thank you" for being such a positive addition to the discussion. There's nothing more boring than an echo chamber and I really value the diversity of opinion that your bring.
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 04:22 PM   #228
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I know how hard it is sometimes to keep it civil
I'm sure nobody noticed

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Old Sep 19, 2013, 05:07 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
<Snip>
You'll read people talking of the cost of usage yet not what the quality of care is like which for some places in the UK, is abysmal. A&E wait times are staggering, referrals sometimes don't get done (speaking from experience) and the general state of hospitals are falling due to the NHS's moronic push for cutting costs, it may help if the NHS fired the very same idiots that are making these so called cuts to nurses as their salaries could fund a fair few nurses.

Don't get me wrong, it's great to not worry about the cost and it's there for whenever you need it but the quality of care is in decline, although I'm sure the same could be said for care in the US too?
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 05:50 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by northy124 View Post
Don't get me wrong, it's great to not worry about the cost and it's there for whenever you need it but the quality of care is in decline, although I'm sure the same could be said for care in the US too?
That depends on who you talk to: which hospital they want to; what their health issue was; and what their insurance provider was. We've already had a few posters proclaiming that they received the best care possible here, while others claimed the opposite. I've been at hospitals where nearly all of the healthcare staff were down on the place and felt that the care was sub-par, yet would still hear patients claiming that "this is the best hospital in the world, right here." That's subjectivity for you.

What isn't subjective is the data indicating that Americans spend more money on healthcare and have worse outcomes relative to the European countries.

I'm not trying to say that Europe or any other country has a perfect healthcare system. I think all of these systems can be improved. They need to be dynamic to respond to changing population conditions and technologies. All countries can make improvements, but America's healthcare system is performing particularly poorly compared to those of other nations.
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 06:57 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
I thought you were talking about my quote from Citizen. Sorry about that.

But there are statistics on the web about the US and how quickly we get access to healthcare compared to other countries.

I know....link is not good because its Fox News right?

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...re-in-america/

US system good or bad...it is about to get worse....much worse. It gripes me that there are these exemptions. People who crammed the stuff down our throats are even exempt. If it isn't good enough for them then it isn't good enough for me
Well, that Fox News article is right.

If you are lucky enough to receive healthcare treatment in the U.S., you will probably receive it faster than in other countries. But the reason for this is pretty simple, and is even mentioned in the Fox News article itself, and not because of the "non-universal" status of the U.S. healthcare system.

The reason is because you take over 50 million people out of the line, and then give the people remaining in the line the ability to buy their way to the front of the queue.
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Old Sep 19, 2013, 10:21 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by zin View Post
Well, that Fox News article is right.

If you are lucky enough to receive healthcare treatment in the U.S., you will probably receive it faster than in other countries. But the reason for this is pretty simple, and is even mentioned in the Fox News article itself, and not because of the "non-universal" status of the U.S. healthcare system.

The reason is because you take over 50 million people out of the line, and then give the people remaining in the line the ability to buy their way to the front of the queue.
I'm sure if you have private healthcare in any country you can get an MRI scan within 24 hours...
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Old Sep 20, 2013, 07:22 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by zin View Post
Well, that Fox News article is right.

If you are lucky enough to receive healthcare treatment in the U.S., you will probably receive it faster than in other countries. But the reason for this is pretty simple, and is even mentioned in the Fox News article itself, and not because of the "non-universal" status of the U.S. healthcare system.

The reason is because you take over 50 million people out of the line, and then give the people remaining in the line the ability to buy their way to the front of the queue.
You might need to read a little further as it expanded upon the 50 million uninsured:

"50 million Americans, lack health insurance. But ten million were not even US citizens; millions more claimed to have no health insurance but were using insurance; and 13 million adults and 5 million children were already eligible for government insurance, but had not enrolled. Claims about uninsured Americans have been greatly exaggerated."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...ixzz2fTwJt6FJ:

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It's a bit off-topic and a meta discussion-y, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to be able to discuss these topics with someone who doesn't hold the same political beliefs, yet still maintains a pleasant tone to their posts.

I know how hard it is sometimes to keep it civil and not take these things too seriously and I just wanted to say "thank you" for being such a positive addition to the discussion. There's nothing more boring than an echo chamber and I really value the diversity of opinion that your bring.
Thank you for the kind words.
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Old Sep 20, 2013, 07:34 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
You might need to read a little further as it expanded upon the 50 million uninsured:

"50 million Americans, lack health insurance. But ten million were not even US citizens; millions more claimed to have no health insurance but were using insurance; and 13 million adults and 5 million children were already eligible for government insurance, but had not enrolled. Claims about uninsured Americans have been greatly exaggerated."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...ixzz2fTwJt6FJ:

----------



Thank you for the kind words.
I agree that the figures should be honest. Non citizens and those who are eligible for Medicare should be excluded.
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Old Sep 21, 2013, 02:09 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
I agree that the figures should be honest.
Whisfull thinking ....


How should one count those that have inadequate insurance ? You know the kind that excludes all the really expensive treatments or even has a hard $ limit.
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Old Sep 21, 2013, 12:41 PM   #236
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I agree that the figures should be honest. Non citizens and those who are eligible for Medicare should be excluded.
Dealing with non-citizens is not a simple issue. Millions of illegal immigrants are living and working in the U.S. at menial jobs. Traditionally, most seasonal farmworkers were illegals. In fact, in the last 40 years or so, it has been virtually impossible for a U.S. citizen to get a job picking seasonal fruit (like apples); this has been done exclusively by "undocumented" migrant farm workers. Funny how the children of hardworking illegal immigrants suddenly become lazy and this ineligible to work-- minimum wage, social security, workers comp, etc.? These are all irrelevant if the workforce is illegal. This is only now just changing, and, growers are complaining bitterly about it.

Many of these workers are constantly on the move. They often live in very small cottages (sometimes subsidized by the local county), are trucked out to the fields in the backs of the grower's trucks, and, apparently, never get sick. Well, guess what, they actually do get sick and injured, and, guess who pays the bills in the end? Not the growers, I can tell you.

Yet the farmworkers, like everyone else, pay property taxes indirectly and sales taxes directly, yet, the benefits accrue to the growers. The U.S. has taken the most hypocritical approach to farmworkers possible.

So yes, somehow the cost of non-citizens should be factored in. When it finally is, apples and strawberries will have to cost significantly more. Sorry about that.
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Old Sep 21, 2013, 03:06 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
You might need to read a little further as it expanded upon the 50 million uninsured:

"50 million Americans, lack health insurance. But ten million were not even US citizens; millions more claimed to have no health insurance but were using insurance; and 13 million adults and 5 million children were already eligible for government insurance, but had not enrolled. Claims about uninsured Americans have been greatly exaggerated."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...ixzz2fTwJt6FJ:

----------



Thank you for the kind words.
There are disadvantages to NHS, there is no denying it. But you cannot ignore its advantages either. Read this story about a conservative American that moved to Canada who beforehand thought NHS was a violation of her freedom.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/20...l-health-care/

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Fast forward a little past the Canadian births of my third and fourth babies. I had better prenatal care than I had ever had in the States. I came in regularly for appointments to check on my health and my babies’ health throughout my pregnancy, and I never had to worry about how much a test cost or how much the blood draw fee was. With my pregnancies in the States, I had limited my checkups to only a handful to keep costs down. When I went in to get the shot I needed because of my negative blood type, it was covered. In fact I got the recommended 2 doses instead of the more risky 1 dose because I didn’t have to worry about the expense. I had a wide array of options and flexibility when it came to my birth, and care providers that were more concerned with my health and the health of my baby than how much money they might make based on my birth, or what might impact their reputation best. When health care is universal, Drs are free to recommend and provide the best care for every patient instead of basing their care on what each patient can afford.
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Old Sep 21, 2013, 10:24 PM   #238
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There are disadvantages to NHS, there is no denying it. But you cannot ignore its advantages either. Read this story about a conservative American that moved to Canada who beforehand thought NHS was a violation of her freedom.
I think this is the most important quote from that article:

Quote:
Drs are free to recommend and provide the best care for every patient instead of basing their care on what each patient can afford.
This right here should be the end of discussion about why a national system is better than the screwy States' system. But of course, the only people who would fight against this are those who are pissed that some people would get care that they don't believe they deserve/have earned.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 08:00 AM   #239
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This right here should be the end of discussion about why a national system is better than the screwy States' system. But of course, the only people who would fight against this are those who are pissed that some people would get care that they don't believe they deserve/have earned.
"People against other people getting free stuff" may factor in, but I think a lot of people don't realize how much the insurance factors into their care. I say this because a major argument raised against the national, government-backed system related to fears that the government would dictate what type of care people could receive. My guess is that if people realized that there is already a third party dictating the terms of their care, that argument would have seemed a bit silly. (There are always a few who trust corporations more than the government, though.)

Even many of those who seem to be "in the know" about insurance companies' impacts on their care act as if physicians have the ultimate say. We've had many patients come by and ask if we could talk to their insurance company to get something covered, and many physicians privately scoff in frustration. Aside from lacking the time to wrangle with the insurance company on the phone, most of these companies don't care - not for the "non-life threatening" issues we're talking about.

A national system wouldn't necessarily make this issue any better, but from the physician's end, it sure would simplify things. As things stand, it seems like every insurance company has different preferences for medications and lab tests. You can't just treat the patient, you need to factor in their insurance company. At least with a national standard you would know what was and wasn't covered for everyone.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 11:32 AM   #240
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(There are always a few who trust corporations more than the government, though.)
And then there's that. Anyone who thinks a publicly-traded corporation has one iota of interest in their health over profit dollars is a morodiot.
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