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Old May 13, 2013, 05:05 PM   #51
NT1440
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Originally Posted by DesterWallaboo View Post
Taken down and put on practically every Torrent site online.
Thank god that the vast majority of Americans don't know how to download anything via torrent....or use a computer without getting it infected...or apply a simple update.....


You know what...I'm not too concerned about this whole 3D printed gun thing.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:05 AM   #52
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I'v never met a single person with a mindset like that. Frankly, I find it insulting.
I've met plenty. Most of which call themselves 'liberals' or 'progressives', and may of which would accept my definition (with a few small caveats perhaps) generally as how they see the world - or representing their general goals. If you haven't met them, I suggest going to a few more local DNC meetings, or perhaps taking your every-day political positions to their logical long-term conclusions.

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I think that was the intent. The OP was attempting to start with as trollish a post as possible.
That's a personal attack. The post was not intended to be 'trollish' in any sense of the word. Simply my opinion, with my analysis of the modern use of the word 'liberal' as diametrically opposed to it's historical meaning.

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You said it, not me

I've noticed most of posts like that start by defining the "liberal" mindset as....then goes to post the exact policies that the "conservatives" have been putting in place (but not talking about) every. single. time. they get into power.

So the real question becomes, is there a sense of self hatred going on there?
Well said - indeed you are correct that REPUBLICANS have past many of the exact same policies I slam - I'd hardly call them conservatives though - again depending on which definition of the word you favor. To suggest that modern day Republicans represent the small-government, pro-liberty, mindset in modern times... is patently ridiculous. They are good on occasion, but its usually more talk than action. If they governed in the majority closer to the way they did in the minority, we'd be far better off.

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The straw-man definition of "(non-classical) liberal" appears to be a compilation of things he hates. Various non-right-wing-libertarians may exhibit one or two of these mindsets, so he just slaps the whole everything-I-hate label on them. Much easier than using the mind.

Because, if you do use your mind, your realize that home-printable plastic firearms result in the exact opposite of liberty. Freedom can end up becoming just as oppressive as tyranny, as every library, bus station, grocery store, shopping center, et cetera, might begin patting people down on the way in. It would probably not reach that extreme, but I sure would prefer it not have a good reason to even start to approach it.
'Liberal' in this country used to stand for someone who was pro-personal liberty - someone who was very interested in curtailing the power of government, and leaving men with more ability to run their own lives and make their own mistakes. Liberalism meant you refused tyranny, abhorred taxation, and generally believed that the reduced security that came with being 'free' was a cost well worth paying.

It has come to mean something all together different, and dare I say... diametrically opposed.

So yes, I consider myself a liberal... a classical liberal ala Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, and James Madison.
If you'd rather thrown in with the modern bigger-government lesser-freedom liberals like Barack Obama and Franklin Roosevelt, that's fine. Just don't pretend to care about freedoms in general, when its only a select few you aim to defend.
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Old May 14, 2013, 12:30 PM   #53
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That's a personal attack. The post was not intended to be 'trollish' in any sense of the word. Simply my opinion
Quid pro quo. Your OP started out as a personal attack on a group of people, many of whom post on this forum. It began with a hostile tone, which to me looked darn trollish, encouraging bickering rather than discussion. And that is my opinion.
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Old May 14, 2013, 03:32 PM   #54
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Well said - indeed you are correct that REPUBLICANS have past many of the exact same policies I slam - I'd hardly call them conservatives though - again depending on which definition of the word you favor. To suggest that modern day Republicans represent the small-government, pro-liberty, mindset in modern times... is patently ridiculous. They are good on occasion, but its usually more talk than action.
My God.

We have far more in common than I think either of us realized.

Just for clarification I respect old school conservatives (think Chomsky), but I think we can both agree those passing themselves of as conservatives these days really are a unique blend of extreme libertarianism and neocons.
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Old May 14, 2013, 03:53 PM   #55
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My God.

We have far more in common than I think either of us realized.

Just for clarification I respect old school conservatives (think Chomsky), but I think we can both agree those passing themselves of as conservatives these days really are a unique blend of extreme libertarianism and neocons.
Whoa, don't jump to any rash conclusions!

I respect Noam Chomsky, and agree with many of his views, but disagree with others. My own ideals more closely align with Dr. Ron Paul, with Thomas Jefferson, with Ludwig Von Mises, etc.

It's the neocon republicans and the big-government republicans I worry about. The more 'pro-liberty' and 'pro-small-gov't' the republican party gets, the better in my opinion.

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Quid pro quo. Your OP started out as a personal attack on a group of people, many of whom post on this forum. It began with a hostile tone, which to me looked darn trollish, encouraging bickering rather than discussion. And that is my opinion.
As I've laid out several times already, I know many progressives or liberals who would generally accept my definition of their worldview (with admittedly a few cavaets no doubt) My definition was intended for drawing goal posts to frame the conversation... not trolling as you'd suggest.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:30 PM   #56
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One young man, 25, in his basement, designing a plastic gun which can be printed at nearly zero cost, which also happens to be undetectable by security scanning devices, that totally changes the debate.
Zero cost? You mean except the very expensive 3D printer. And it's single shot and takes about a minute to reload.

And it isn't totally plastic.

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What do you think? Should the government put the hammer down? Should all plastic guns be outlawed? How about 3-D printing devices? Should Mr. Wilson be punished somehow for his invention? Is there someway the government can contain this disaster? How?
All plastic, undetectable guns are already outlawed for sale.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:36 PM   #57
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Zero cost? You mean except the very expensive 3D printer. And it's single shot and takes about a minute to reload.

And it isn't totally plastic.



All plastic, undetectable guns are already outlawed for sale.
Not surprised on your statement(s).

Honestly, I don't even expect the NRA and most Republicans to support 3D printing of guns. Why? Because the gun companies (iron triangle at play here) won't be making any money off of it.
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Old May 14, 2013, 09:48 PM   #58
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Not surprised on your statement(s).

Honestly, I don't even expect the NRA and most Republicans to support 3D printing of guns. Why? Because the gun companies (iron triangle at play here) won't be making any money off of it.
You aren't surprised that I support not making a new law to ban them because there is already a law that bans them?

Sweet.
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