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Old Sep 7, 2013, 02:37 PM   #426
kdarling
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Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
As you can see in this detailed part leak photo, the sensor is in the center of the metal disc, which would lie directly under the button.
I dunno. Looks pretty similar to a normal home button.

An RF sensor would normally have an array of metallic pixels (antennas).

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The fingerprint processor is the adjacent square directly down the ribbon cable.
It looks like whatever goes on the square is missing.

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The sapphire composition of the home button makes sense because it would be important to keep the integrity of the finger/sensor interface maintained and free of wear.
Sapphire makes no technical sense at all. For one thing, it's expensive to make and cut. More importantly, fingerprint sensors already use a carbon layer that's HARDER than sapphire. The only reason to use it would be to sound "cool".

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The metal ring surrounding the home button is also key to this technology. Electrical contact with the users finger is needed for this RF imaging method to work.
The retaining ring around the button above, though, isn't that ring.

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Interestingly, this metal ring could be constructed out of Apple's acquired LiquidMetal technology, which is reported to be transparent to RF. So this ring will NOT be an indicator light or anything.
LiquidMetal is NOT transparent to RF. It can conduct RF. Which is why it could used for a ring antenna, if there is one.

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I still find it odd that the button had to be made convex in shape. A typical finger would be flush with the regular concave shaped button. Maybe it was necessary to fit the sensor correctly and have the exact tolerances of dielectric thickness.
As you said, convex would distort the finger and makes no sense.
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Old Sep 7, 2013, 03:15 PM   #427
dirk gently
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I dunno. Looks pretty similar to a normal home button.

An RF sensor would normally have an array of metallic pixels (antennas).
You be the judge. As to what the sensor should look like, I don't know, this may be something not seen before.
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It looks like whatever goes on the square is missing.
I see that now that I look closer. Looks like connection pins are exposed, still waiting for the IC to be attached. In any case, thats where the processor will go

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Sapphire makes no technical sense at all. For one thing, it's expensive to make and cut. More importantly, fingerprint sensors already use a carbon layer that's HARDER than sapphire. The only reason to use it would be to sound "cool".
Apple already uses sapphire on the camera windows. Why not use it again here? A large curved piece may be expensive.. I dont know what they are using, but I wouldn't think a "carbon" layer would work at all here.

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The retaining ring around the button above, though, isn't that ring.
No, I'm talking about the images leaked of the 5S box showing a metallic ring surrounding the home button. Its not pictured in the parts leak photos.

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LiquidMetal is NOT transparent to RF. It can conduct RF. Which is why it could used for a ring antenna, if there is one.
I don't know the facts on this. There was speculation that depending on the alloy it may be RF transparent. The important part for a finger print sensor is that its electrically conductive. So they probably could not use black anodized aluminum here, which would hide the appearance of the ring somewhat.
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Old Sep 7, 2013, 04:16 PM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
You be the judge. As to what the sensor should look like, I don't know, this may be something not seen before.

I see that now that I look closer. Looks like connection pins are exposed, still waiting for the IC to be attached. In any case, that's where the processor will go
That square could also be a way that they are mounting the button now for some reason. The flat ribbon cable doesn't look wide enough to carry much in the way of signal short of 'yep it's pushed/no it's not' and maybe a back-light. (Could that be what the dark dot in the center is? Some kind of new notification system?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
Apple already uses sapphire on the camera windows. Why not use it again here? A large curved piece may be expensive.. I don't know what they are using, but I wouldn't think a "carbon" layer would work at all here.
Sapphire, aside from what people think, is actually rather fragile. I've had the crystals replaced on two very high end watches that had 'sapphire crystals'. One cracked in such a way that really surprised me. Sure, in small sizes, sapphire would be stronger, but then so would standard glass and the Gorilla Glass would be even stronger. It's possible that it might be due to light refraction, or some other physical quality of the substance, but sapphire isn't 'all that'...

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Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
No, I'm talking about the images leaked of the 5S box showing a metallic ring surrounding the home button. Its not pictured in the parts leak photos.

I don't know the facts on this. There was speculation that depending on the alloy it may be RF transparent. The important part for a finger print sensor is that its electrically conductive. So they probably could not use black anodized aluminum here, which would hide the appearance of the ring somewhat.
I would be very surprised if Apple, or anyone for that matter, could turn around a newly acquired technology companies product for use in a freshly designed new device in under, what, 2 months? Not unless they were already a customer of said company, and the salesperson said 'Hey, crazy idea I know, at least that's what we said in the break room, but instead of buying our technology, why not buy the whole damn company'. Is it possible? Well yeah, anything is 'possible'. Physicists are still wondering why when we blink our eyes, the whole universe is still there when our eyes open, but it sounds like a real tall order. What is more likely... We'll all, like everything, have to wait and see...
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Old Sep 7, 2013, 04:30 PM   #429
borgqueenx
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Originally Posted by xumax View Post
Finally somebody with a clear mind. Thanks and good to know such people still exist beside the mob of brainwashed blind sheeps.
" Oh I am so excited, about this new ..." Says the lazy pig and gets fatter for slaughter.

If you think you can switch it off:
How you know its really off, like the camera lens in front of your face ...
How you know that it can't be switched on without your notice?

Its impossible says apple ....... Yes right.... Now we feel better....

Wake up guys! This is not the so called wet dream.
They cum already! ( and are funny laughing about the pigs paying premium for their own imprisonment and observation.)

Iwill never buy an apple product again, under such circumstances.
That seems to be the only thing one can do, to hold up freedom for our children.
As if the money wont roll in, they listen up and hopefully change.
One can hope, but as I read along .... I know ..... You are so excited....
Oh boy...i am so glad i dont live so fearful as you do. And even if they get my fingerprints, i dont really give much shitz about that....my dutch ID card also required multiple finger prints. Whats the deal?
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Old Sep 7, 2013, 06:24 PM   #430
kdarling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
Apple already uses sapphire on the camera windows. Why not use it again here? A large curved piece may be expensive.. I dont know what they are using, but I wouldn't think a "carbon" layer would work at all here.
To work, current active capacitance (RF) sensors need to have a protection layer only a few microns thick.

Currently, that's often done by laying down silicon carbide. That is cheaper and harder than sapphire, which AFAIK cannot be cut or laid down that thin anyway.

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I don't know the facts on this. There was speculation that depending on the alloy it may be RF transparent.
This is why experienced engineers and developers hang around here. To help separate fact from fiction.

The rumor that Liquid Metal was RF transparent came about when one of its inventors was interviewed, and he made an off-hand remark about using an entire LM shell as the antenna. In other words, since it was a metal conductor, the only choice would be to go ahead and use it as a conductor.

His comment was soon twisted around by technically ignorant reporters, into a ridiculous suggestion that if LiquidMetal could be used as the shell, it must be radio transparent. They totally ignored the critical part about the entire case having to BE the antenna.

Cheers!

Edit: Found a reference here. "You can build casings with functional characteristics, and the alloy’s properties as an antenna can be optimized,” (LM co-inventor) Peker said.

Last edited by kdarling; Sep 7, 2013 at 08:41 PM.
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Old Sep 7, 2013, 10:10 PM   #431
kdarling
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Originally Posted by dirk gently View Post
You be the judge. As to what the sensor should look like, I don't know, this may be something not seen before.
Or perhaps the particular button and connector set photo we're all looking at, is still not the final one?

Rogifan posted a link to a very interesting article on Patently Apple, btw. It shows a patent picture of a sensor in a home button, and even talks about an inductive NFC antenna to the right of the button.

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...me-button.html

So maybe all the rumors are true, after all.

(Note: fingerprint sensors along the sides of a case, or even inside buttons, are not a new idea. Some sensor companies advertise that they'll put one wherever you want.)
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Old Sep 8, 2013, 12:52 PM   #432
Michael Scrip
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Originally Posted by Zellio View Post

Have you actually used the HTC One? It not only reversed HTC's fortunes but it's also currently the phone of the year. Anybody who has used it can you (Such as me, it's my phone).

I never cared about HTC before the One.

So sales to you are the only factor that shows if a company is falling behind? Then expect to be completely caught off guard when sales drop, the same that happened to companies like RIM or Sony with the PS3.
It's not only sales... it's also money that indicates a company is falling behind.

HTC had an 83% drop in profit a while ago... and I'm not sure if the HTC One can fix that.

There are also predictions that HTC will have an operating loss in Q3 2013

As for sales... if not many people are buying HTC phones... it doesn't matter if they have the "the phone of the year"
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Old Sep 8, 2013, 08:10 PM   #433
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I really don't see a fingerprint sensor happening. Would be cool though
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 02:11 PM   #434
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They did it! Interesting. Sounds like the 5S (5s?) will be the 'Droid-killer'?

It looks like they bent that ribbon cable over and the square bit fits OVER the round bit. It makes sense. Running the fingerprint scan off the main processor wouldn't tax it too hard, and it's not continuous apparently. It sound like a totally awesome iPhone... I think Apple proved they can innovate, and raised the bar...
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Old Sep 10, 2013, 02:20 PM   #435
bkribbs
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Wait so is the home button capacitive now? Like I never need to click it?
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Old Jan 8, 2014, 01:04 PM   #436
trifero
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Originally Posted by orbital~debris View Post
To all those saying "not a chance" that Apple would ever use a convex button - I assume you've never owned/used an original iPod?
No convex button on 5S.
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Old Jan 10, 2014, 06:05 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by trifero View Post
No convex button on 5S.
My original post stands. Apple did use a convex button on the original iPod.
Whether they did/did not use one on the 5s is irrelevant. I posted my comment to illustrate a reason why it was foolish to claim that Apple would in never potentially use a convex-shaped button.
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