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Old Jul 18, 2013, 11:27 PM   #51
rabidz7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspyr-Blair View Post
Awww, c'mon now. We worked really hard to make sure that statement isn't a reality anymore.

Civ V launched 1 month after PC on Steam. After that launch, we have released same day as PC for all DLC, plus BOTH huge expansions (Gods and Kings, Brave New World)

Borderlands 2 released just 3 months after PC. Since that release, we have released ALL dlc's on same day or within 2-3 weeks of PC on Steam.

Bioshock Infinite is a particular challenge, but we will still be within 5 months of the PC release, and I can guarantee you will not have to wait long (if at all) for DLC on that title either.

Now granted, MacAppStore is a little behind on DLC releases, but that has to do with the framework and challenge of developing on that platform.

That all said, I totally agree with you. If I gamed on both platforms through my Mac, I wouldn't wait either. But I'm like the VAST majority of Mac gamers out there, I prefer not to mess with dual booting. So I wait for the title to come out on my platform, which through a lot of hard work from both Aspyr and Feral is getting to be a negligible time period.
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5. And don't tell me that "it isn't fast enough", I've heard that BS way to many times, I don't care if I get 5FPS, if that is obtained with out any form of the mess x86 is, and a lot of people are like me. Why do I have to go to my 7970, 8350, AMD rig just to play games, even though a lot of people get by playing CIV V on garbage hardware that my quad core 2.5GHz, 7970 (7970 has no video output) system would destroy. I don't care if your games come out a year later on PowerPC, all I care is that they will be there, it is never too late to reverse terrible decisions, such as not releasing games for PowerPC. Please consider doing this.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 01:31 AM   #52
antonis
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Originally Posted by Nightarchaon View Post
i Think that used to be the case, back before the macs had the market penetration they have now, nowadays the common user probably outnumbers the "mac faithful" who would wait for a Mac specifc release.

then you have people like me, i have mac hardware, i love Mac OS as a productivity OS, and as a Media OS, but for gaming, well, i either game on a Console , or, i game under windows, i want the games i play on release day, not crippled months down the line (still waiting for the Mac version of Borderlands 2 DLC to catch up with the PC version, hell, im still waiting for the Mac version of Dragon Age : Origins DLC to catch up with the PC version).

The bottom line is, whilst games have to go through third parties such as aspyr or feral, you will always get late to market, semi-functional games...

I personally would prefer if they waited until the PC version launched as a GOTY edition then converted that, so the Mac gets the FULL content from the PC with all the bells and whistles
I'm on the same boat with you (or I was until recently), so I know the feeling. But I was so tired from consoles (PS3 f/w update everytime I switched the console on...wth sony ? ) so now I live with mac-only gaming. I do have an - unused yet - bootcamp partition for the "one and only super duper game" that might come for PC and I won't be able to wait for a Mac release, but in general I'm on with this.

Having said that, though, I would love to see games released for Mac and PC concurrently.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 03:33 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5. And don't tell me that "it isn't fast enough", I've heard that BS way to many times, I don't care if I get 5FPS, if that is obtained with out any form of the mess x86 is, and a lot of people are like me.
Feral kept supporting PPC until the number of PPC users dropped to almost single figures when we released the final PPC patches. We have not really had any requests for PPC versions of any modern games.

I would also say I have yet to find any customer who does not care about performance and would be happy with 5fps!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
Why do I have to go to my 7970, 8350, AMD rig just to play games, even though a lot of people get by playing CIV V on garbage hardware that my quad core 2.5GHz, 7970 (7970 has no video output) system would destroy.
PPC machines have graphics cards from ~ 2005 which even if they were high end are now around 8 years old. Technology moves on and even if the raw performance figures in "Geek Bench" say a Quad PPC G5 Tower is as fast as a MacBook from 2010 but that does not mean it will play games or has good gfx support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
I don't care if your games come out a year later on PowerPC, all I care is that they will be there, it is never too late to reverse terrible decisions, such as not releasing games for PowerPC. Please consider doing this.
It's just not feasible for modern games, as Feral we stayed making a PPC version for as long as we could but at some point it's just not feasible. For the current games like Tropico 4 it's just not possible as the game engine makes assumptions about GL support that the PPC G5 just don't have.

We updated Rome for PPC (as we promised we would) and even though that is a massive selling game the PPC user based is tiny. The problem with PPC support is not a lack of desire to support PPC but that the machines are not capable mostly due to very old graphics support and the OS has not been updated in years.

The main things that stop PPC development being feasible are:

1. Final version of OS X for PPC Mac's is 10.5.8 - This means the port cannot use ANY new technology, OpenGL features and bug fixes in the last 4 years. When you are porting games that by design try and use every new bit of technology to the maximum that's a big deficit to overcome.
2. The best officially supported card for PPC is the X600 card in the tower. The Intel iMac (X1600) was from the same graphics series and has been unsupported (on Intel!) for almost 2 years now.
3. Due to graphics features in new games needing to use the very latest technology the minimum OS is usually 10.7.5 in games although some newer ones are 10.8.x (latest patch).
4. The PPC user base in total is under 2%, if you take into account many of these machines will be G4 and lower powered G5 machines you are left with a tiny % of machines that in theory are capable of running the games.

To summarise it's not an excuse, developing and running modern games needs modern hardware and software support. When the development is at best not feasible and worst impossible combined with fact the number of machines that might be able to play is at best under 2% of the install base it's not practical or feasible.

Edwin

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Originally Posted by petsounds View Post
Just curious, what's been a particular challenge about Infinite, if you can speak about it? The engine/content, or political things?
I don't work for Aspyr but based on the first 2 games in the series and a few friends who worked on the original console title I have a few ideas Getting the BioShock engine to draw all that shiny correctly and with good performance is a real challenge and takes time, effort and some skill.

I have to admit I was slightly disappointed that I would not get to work on Infinite but equally I was slightly relieved at the same time as I knew it would be a "Big daddy" to port

Best of luck to the guys at Aspyr with the port and I look forward to playing it on release.

Edwin
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 05:38 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5.
Which would cost 10s of thousands of dollars to create if it were even feasible at all.

And no, your G5 hardware is not fast enough for modern games. System performance is not a about raw processor speed. System RAM, GPU, the underlying architecture that binds everything together, all of it comes into play.

In the end, Edwin gave a very detailed explanation of why PPC is dead for gaming and he speaks with a bit more authority than you.

Get over it and get over yourself.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 06:57 AM   #55
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Apple itself is not supporting Power PC platform anymore (no new OS, no upgrades, no security fixes). It's, therefore, pointless to ask from 3rd party s/w houses to do so.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 07:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by saturnotaku View Post
Which would cost 10s of thousands of dollars to create if it were even feasible at all.

And no, your G5 hardware is not fast enough for modern games. System performance is not a about raw processor speed. System RAM, GPU, the underlying architecture that binds everything together, all of it comes into play.

In the end, Edwin gave a very detailed explanation of why PPC is dead for gaming and he speaks with a bit more authority than you.

Get over it and get over yourself.
Exactly what I was thinking as I caught up on the thread ... and at that point, quite honestly, it would be more cost effective to buy a new Macbook Pro i7 for the half-dozen or so people gaming on a G5 expecting to run cutting edge games at all than it would be to even try to make one of them Universal ...
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 08:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dirtyharry50 View Post
You would? This completely contradicts what you have been saying about how you prefer to play games on launch day in Windows doesn't it?
Actually it doesnt, , I often buy PC games at launch, Ignore the DLC and then pickup the GOTY edition down the line (done this with many many games, enough that i have a section in steam for "Not Installed original games"

(im a sucker for Collectors editions, Song Bird edition bioshock infinite, Skyrim with Dragon, Knights of the Old Republic with Figurine, Defiance with Messenger Bag and Hellbug statue etc etc)
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 08:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by antonis View Post
Apple itself is not supporting Power PC platform anymore (no new OS, no upgrades, no security fixes). It's, therefore, pointless to ask from 3rd party s/w houses to do so.
And of course there's this, too.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 10:41 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petsounds View Post
Just curious, what's been a particular challenge about Infinite, if you can speak about it? The engine/content, or political things?
Edwin is correct, Infinite is awful purty and the content is particularly taxing on the Mac hardware. That said, it's looking great on my MBP and we are getting close to a polished port!

Politically it couldn't be better. The guys at Irrational/2K are SUPER cool to work with, and their support for our platform has been nothing but stellar.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 01:07 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Aspyr-Blair View Post
Edwin is correct, Infinite is awful purty and the content is particularly taxing on the Mac hardware. That said, it's looking great on my MBP and we are getting close to a polished port!

Politically it couldn't be better. The guys at Irrational/2K are SUPER cool to work with, and their support for our platform has been nothing but stellar.
Cool, thanks for the response (and Edwin too). I'm glad to hear you have it about wrangled, and to hear that Irrational/2K are supportive of the platform.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 02:55 PM   #61
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Irrational/2K are supportive of the platform.
I'd feel the same way, too, if I didn't have to do the work of porting it.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 03:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5. And don't tell me that "it isn't fast enough", I've heard that BS way to many times, I don't care if I get 5FPS, if that is obtained with out any form of the mess x86 is, and a lot of people are like me. Why do I have to go to my 7970, 8350, AMD rig just to play games, even though a lot of people get by playing CIV V on garbage hardware that my quad core 2.5GHz, 7970 (7970 has no video output) system would destroy. I don't care if your games come out a year later on PowerPC, all I care is that they will be there, it is never too late to reverse terrible decisions, such as not releasing games for PowerPC. Please consider doing this.
If you're so attached to PPC architecture on principle, get a 360 or a PS3. Those will likely be the last wide-scale uses of PowerPC chips.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 04:18 PM   #63
rabidz7
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Originally Posted by saturnotaku View Post
Which would cost 10s of thousands of dollars to create if it were even feasible at all.

And no, your G5 hardware is not fast enough for modern games. System performance is not a about raw processor speed. System RAM, GPU, the underlying architecture that binds everything together, all of it comes into play.

In the end, Edwin gave a very detailed explanation of why PPC is dead for gaming and he speaks with a bit more authority than you.

Get over it and get over yourself.
20GB of RAM (fully functional, accessible, and quick), 30GT of CPU<->RAM bandwidth (no x86 cpu has that amount of bandwidth), and a GTX 7970 (the 7970 is for looks). My weakness is the GPU and I am trying to get the 7970 to do something other than look interesting.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asuriyan View Post
If you're so attached to PPC architecture on principle, get a 360 or a PS3. Those will likely be the last wide-scale uses of PowerPC chips.
Except for every server that handles most of the internet's traffic. And tons of embedded devices.
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Old Jul 19, 2013, 04:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
20GB of RAM (fully functional, accessible, and quick), 30GT of CPU<->RAM bandwidth (no x86 cpu has that amount of bandwidth), and a GTX 7970 (the 7970 is for looks). My weakness is the GPU and I am trying to get the 7970 to do something other than look interesting.

----------



Except for every server that handles most of the internet's traffic. And tons of embedded devices.
Truthfully I had forgotten about POWER7 (which is still in use in gaming, in the Wii U), but ARM is pretty well crushing PPC in low-cost embedded solutions.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 01:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5. And don't tell me that "it isn't fast enough", I've heard that BS way to many times, I don't care if I get 5FPS, if that is obtained with out any form of the mess x86 is, and a lot of people are like me. Why do I have to go to my 7970, 8350, AMD rig just to play games, even though a lot of people get by playing CIV V on garbage hardware that my quad core 2.5GHz, 7970 (7970 has no video output) system would destroy. I don't care if your games come out a year later on PowerPC, all I care is that they will be there, it is never too late to reverse terrible decisions, such as not releasing games for PowerPC. Please consider doing this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
20GB of RAM (fully functional, accessible, and quick), 30GT of CPU<->RAM bandwidth (no x86 cpu has that amount of bandwidth), and a GTX 7970 (the 7970 is for looks). My weakness is the GPU and I am trying to get the 7970 to do something other than look interesting.
What the... I don't even...

-SC
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 06:12 AM   #66
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What the... I don't even...

-SC
LOL! That sums it up pretty nicely.
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Old Jul 20, 2013, 01:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by rabidz7 View Post
If you made all your games universal, I would have 100s of dollars in aspyr games on my G5. And don't tell me that "it isn't fast enough", I've heard that BS way to many times, I don't care if I get 5FPS, if that is obtained with out any form of the mess x86 is, and a lot of people are like me. Why do I have to go to my 7970, 8350, AMD rig just to play games, even though a lot of people get by playing CIV V on garbage hardware that my quad core 2.5GHz, 7970 (7970 has no video output) system would destroy. I don't care if your games come out a year later on PowerPC, all I care is that they will be there, it is never too late to reverse terrible decisions, such as not releasing games for PowerPC. Please consider doing this.
Why didn't Bioshock Infinite get ported to Playstation 2?! I am outraged!

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Old Jul 22, 2013, 09:43 AM   #68
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I'd like to thank Edwin and Aspyr-Blair for their contributions to this thread. I had been buying titles in Steam through the iPhone app, but I am going to make sure to buy ones with OSX versions on my MacBook to make doubly sure the Mac developer gets credit (I have Steam on a PC as well and I'm not sure how Valve is deciding which platform gets credit since I don't get to playing most games for several months). I also picked up the new XCOM to welcome Feral to Steam. XCOM hadn't even been on my radar and I probably won't get to it for a few months, but I appreciate the work Feral put into it and Edwin's excellent participation in the forums.
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Old Jul 22, 2013, 09:51 AM   #69
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I'd like to thank Edwin and Aspyr-Blair for their contributions to this thread. I had been buying titles in Steam through the iPhone app, but I am going to make sure to buy ones with OSX versions on my MacBook to make doubly sure the Mac developer gets credit (I have Steam on a PC as well and I'm not sure how Valve is deciding which platform gets credit since I don't get to playing most games for several months). I also picked up the new XCOM to welcome Feral to Steam. XCOM hadn't even been on my radar and I probably won't get to it for a few months, but I appreciate the work Feral put into it and Edwin's excellent participation in the forums.
Thanks Savvos for the kind words

Most excellent indeed, I will leave you to debate who is who!


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