Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Nov 26, 2012, 03:46 PM   #51
tshrimp
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by fox10078 View Post
Same reason big Pharma hates Medical Marijuana, has a lot of benefits for people, but you can't patent a plant, so they can't rule it.
After some of the things Apple has been able to patent, I am surprised that a plant can't be. Why don't they give the task to Apple, and it will be done.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphingDragon View Post
There is no greater evil than unfettered capitalism.
???. I probably just missed a joke in here somewhere, so forgive me if I missed something here. If so no need to read on.

Have you ever spend time in a socialist country? Have you seen the misery it causes its people? And don't forget this "evil" capitalism gives us and other countries the best standard of living possible...especially when compared to most other forms of Govt.
tshrimp is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2012, 04:08 PM   #52
thekev
macrumors 603
 
thekev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
Spoken like a true progressive - read Marxist....

Even the former Soviet Union has abandoned Socialism as the great failed experiment. Why you guys want to go back there is completely beyond my ability to comprehend human behavior.
That comment can be applied to more than just socialism. It can be applied to any kind of regulation. The example that came to mind was environmental, but it works in other scenarios.

Edit: I meant that the concept of free market shouldn't take priority over every other concern.
__________________
world's largest manufacturer of tin foil hats, none of that aluminum foil crap.

Last edited by thekev; Nov 27, 2012 at 05:57 PM. Reason: clarification
thekev is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2012, 04:18 PM   #53
splitpea
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Among the starlings
Quote:
Originally Posted by fox10078 View Post
Same reason big Pharma hates Medical Marijuana, has a lot of benefits for people, but you can't patent a plant, so they can't rule it.
Actually, you can patent a plant. See also: Monsanto.
__________________
What's the point of a sig showing the system I owned in 2006?
splitpea is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2012, 04:24 PM   #54
MorphingDragon
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The World Inbetween
Send a message via Skype™ to MorphingDragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
???. I probably just missed a joke in here somewhere, so forgive me if I missed something here. If so no need to read on.

Have you ever spend time in a socialist country? Have you seen the misery it causes its people? And don't forget this "evil" capitalism gives us and other countries the best standard of living possible...especially when compared to most other forms of Govt.
Riiight, because China and the US both don't have an elite and a very poor with a massive gap between them.

There are more options than just Marxist philosophies, it's called a dictionary and maybe you should read it sometime. That book does wonders.

Have you looked at your own country? One where people are afraid to get injured so they don't go bankrupt. One where people need multiple jobs just to have the bare minimum and where minimum wage is despicable (Minimum wage for Alabama in Hospitality is ~$2 with tips). A place where corporations have more rights than people. A place that exploits smaller countries for its own benefit. A place whos citizens feels powerless to effect its own government. A place where the financial standard is being bogged down with personal debt. A place where warfare takes precedence over furthering society and knowledge.

Last edited by MorphingDragon; Nov 26, 2012 at 04:36 PM.
MorphingDragon is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2012, 04:30 PM   #55
stonyc
macrumors 65816
 
stonyc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Michigan
Send a message via AIM to stonyc
This is just my opinion, having worked in multiple cancer labs and doing lots of sequence analysis as a grad student...

I don't think that most of us will see a "cure" for cancer in our lifetimes... perhaps for generations to come.

Why? Cancer is an extremely complex disease, with hundreds if not thousands of etiologies through changes ranging from the genetic, epigenetic, metabolomic, viral, to the environmental.

Let me go back a little ways... it's 2002-2003 and the Human Genome Project has just been completed. Yay! That means the cure for all diseases must be just around the corner, right?

Wrong. Before the human genome was finished, scientists had placed bets on the number of genes that would be found. If the drosophila genome has around 20,000 genes, surely humans in all of their increased complexity over the common fly must harbor many thousands more? Many guessed 100,000. Others guessed even more, 150,000. 200,000. A few outliers had picked in the neighborhood of 15-20,000 genes. Guess who won? Based on the latest Ensembl and Refseq annotations, there are roughly 20-23,000 genes in the human genome.

So, what explains the relative complexity of humans over flies if we have roughly the same number of genes?

The answer? Alternative splicing. Alternative splicing is the mechanism by which a gene can produce functional proteins through various combinations of its coding sequences (exons). So, for example... one protein might be produced using exons 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 whereas another protein might be produced from the same gene but using only exons 1, 2 and 4.

With all of these different proteins (won't get into nonsense-mediated decay for now) feeding into the various biochemical pathways and the complexities inherent to some of the analytical pipelines used... it can be incredibly difficult to catalog the entirety of the human genome and proteome. And mind you, these analyses are largely done in a vacuum; that is to say, the samples that are sequenced or subjected to mass spec often come from a non-homogenous sample collected at a single time point. Then remember that genes and their expression can be amplified and repressed in very short order based on the needs of the organism and environmental cues.

Long story short, what's missing in a lot of these studies is the dynamic changes that occur in an organism across even short periods of time or changes in environment.

So, I hope that I've convinced you that humans (especially) are incredibly complex even at the most basic genetic level. Now... this is where it gets even trickier. Let's say you have increased expression of one of the most common genes over-expressed in many cancers... TP53 (tumor protein 53). What kind of effects does that have on the various pathways in which P53 is a member? Genes don't function in a vacuum. Most, if not all, genes comprise vast networks that serve to amplify or repress other genes in its networks. This is why a lot of single target drugs won't work for all cancers, and is also why we see lots of side effects. A lot of these networks just are not understood very well. Knock out one gene, it could not only effect the growth signaling network that you wanted to knock out... but it could also affect other networks blindly.

Again, long story short... the networks that genes are part of and wield influence over just are not understood very well either.

So... the genomic landscape is complex. By direct influence then, the human protein landscape is complex. And the networks that these genes and proteins work in are also complex. I won't even get into epigenetics and gene fusions... but suffice to say, we are talking about complexity upon layers of complexity upon layers of complexity. Added on top of these layers upon layers of complexity is the fact that certain genes (like TP53) often act as "guardians to the genome"... a mutation that inactivates or otherwise decreases the efficacy of TP53 will lead to other genes becoming mutated or expressed uncontrollably.

So, what do I think all this means? In short... cancer is extremely messy. Is a "magic bullet" possible? Sure, and whoever discovers it should be awarded all available Nobel Prizes simultaneously because the impact of such a "magic bullet" would be more profound than any single Nobel Prize. Instead, I think cancer will, for generations, be a disease of triage. Some drugs will work for some people, sure. But while a certain percentage might see relief, and even a reprieve from cancer... the genomic, proteomic, epigenetic and network alterations inherent to each patient will be largely different. And if or when that cancer returns, it likely won't be sensitive to the same drug that stopped it the first time.

I'm not saying this because I work in the drug industry (I don't, still a student), or that I someday want to (I don't, I find the personalized medicine field overly optimistic)... I'm saying that we won't likely find a singular cure for cancer (or even for a single type of cancer) because the reasons that you have that cancer are just so complex, and we're only beginning to understand some of those reason.

Is it convenient to blame a multi-billion dollar industry? Yes, we're always looking for scapegoats... the easy answer. But if it were that easy to cure cancer, don't you think someone would be doing just that? Maybe, it's that it's harder to accept the hard truths... Humans are complex. Cancer is complex. Maybe it's not for lack of trying, but instead that it's just that hard to cure.

Sorry for the long post.

TL;DR
Despite the sequencing of the human genome and continuing sequencing projects, we are only barely beginning to understand the genomic and proteomic complexity inherent to humans and other organisms.

Because of this, cancer is complex.

Therefore, curing cancer is extremely hard and we're not likely to see a "magic bullet" anytime soon.

Instead of trying to see conspiracies in every shadow, sometimes it's just that the question being asked doesn't have an easy answer as much as we would like there to be.
stonyc is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 27, 2012, 05:51 PM   #56
MadeTheSwitch
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crunch View Post
As far as I'm aware, after chemotherapy/radiation you either go into remission, or you don't. In the latter case, you're "cured" and in the former case, you often only go through treatment for the rest of your life because you die relatively soon after.

I'm not really aware of a cancer drug that requires you to take it perpetually until you die of natural causes.
But remission is not a cure. Hence the reason for the different "remission" terminology in the first place. The cancer could come back forcing you onto drugs once again. A true cure would not ever have you back in the doctors office for the same thing.
MadeTheSwitch is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 27, 2012, 06:33 PM   #57
LethalWolfe
macrumors Demi-God
 
LethalWolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Quote:
Originally Posted by iStudentUK View Post
The common problem with 'conspiracy' theories is that they would require a concerted effort by many people working together without making mistakes to maintain. Unfortunately, human beings aren't that competent. All pharma companies are quite big (eg in turnover) because the industry is huge there are still many companies out there. The idea that they could somehow have cooperated for so long to conspire not to 'cure' anything is laughable.
You don't need a conspiracy if every company has a similar end goal. It's like species being hunted to extinction. Is there a conspiracy by hunters to eliminate species X? No, but if you have a bunch of hunters who all are trying to maximize short term profits by bagging as much of species X as they can then the inevitable outcome is that species X will be hunted to extinction even if the hunters themselves have never even met each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Have you ever spend time in a socialist country? Have you seen the misery it causes its people? And don't forget this "evil" capitalism gives us and other countries the best standard of living possible...especially when compared to most other forms of Govt.
If you look up "quality of life" and "standards of living" info I think you'll be surprised at what you find.
__________________
Looking For Lenny - documentary about comedian Lenny Bruce's timeless impact on stand-up comedy & Free Speech.
Netflix, iTunes, Amazon
LethalWolfe is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2012, 06:54 AM   #58
Capt Crunch
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cleveland, OH
Send a message via AIM to Capt Crunch
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
But remission is not a cure. Hence the reason for the different "remission" terminology in the first place. The cancer could come back forcing you onto drugs once again. A true cure would not ever have you back in the doctors office for the same thing.
Let me put it this way. What is the average number of times a cancer patient has to take a course of cancer drugs? I'm going to be extremely conservative and say 3.

Do you think that a cure for cancer would not sell at 3x the cost of a single course of chemo?
__________________
His: 13" MBA i5 | iPhone 5S
Hers: 13" MBA C2D | iPhone 4G
HTPC: Unibody MacMini | Drobo S (6TB) | Plex is the shizzle for rizzle
Capt Crunch is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:25 AM   #59
spork183
macrumors 6502a
 
spork183's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
Instead we get a laundry list of new drugs to maintain your life that get advertised on TV along with their horrific side effects. All so some company can make a buck. Great.
Ain't that the truth. "Taking Mycoxifailin can lead to serious side effects. Some users have reported testicular recession, uncontrollable diarrhea, and brain aneurysm. Our attorneys assure us the risk of death or other disappointment is small when compared to our potential profit and growth profile..."

BTW: 1 in 4000 male emergency room trips is for zipping ones junk in ones fly. Can't we get a drug that takes care of that problem?
__________________
"I'll buy almost anything if it's shiny and made by Apple..."
-Macbook Wheel Ad
spork183 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:19 PM   #60
MadeTheSwitch
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Crunch View Post
Let me put it this way. What is the average number of times a cancer patient has to take a course of cancer drugs? I'm going to be extremely conservative and say 3.

Do you think that a cure for cancer would not sell at 3x the cost of a single course of chemo?
I don't know. I have no point of reference to compare it with. If there was some recent cure of something...anything....perhaps I would have something to base a comparison on. Have cures for other diseases been extraordinarily high?
MadeTheSwitch is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:20 PM   #61
samiwas
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Have you ever spend time in a socialist country?
It depends on what you consider socialist. Sweden? Norway? Belgium? Been to all of them, and many more. Or are you just talking about communist style countries like Russia and China?

Quote:
Have you seen the misery it causes its people?
Are you suggesting people in the first three countries above are miserable? Are you kidding me? I have never been around happier people. People who don't have to work themselves to the bone just to afford bare necessities in life. People who don't have to spend massive amounts of their income on healthcare. People who work decent hour and have time off to enjoy life. No, they are not miserable.

Quote:
And don't forget this "evil" capitalism gives us and other countries the best standard of living possible...especially when compared to most other forms of Govt.
Regulated capitalism does. Completely unregulated capitalism does nothing of the sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphingDragon View Post
Have you looked at your own country? One where people are afraid to get injured so they don't go bankrupt. One where people need multiple jobs just to have the bare minimum and where minimum wage is despicable (Minimum wage for Alabama in Hospitality is ~$2 with tips). A place where corporations have more rights than people. A place that exploits smaller countries for its own benefit. A place whos citizens feels powerless to effect its own government. A place where the financial standard is being bogged down with personal debt. A place where warfare takes precedence over furthering society and knowledge.
But...but...in America you have the chance that you might get fabulously wealthy if you put in tons of hard work for many years. If you don't, then oh well...you should have tried even harder.

That is apparently better.
__________________
A lack of planning on your part should not constitute an emergency on mine.
samiwas is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:25 PM   #62
SLC Flyfishing
macrumors 65816
 
SLC Flyfishing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
But remission is not a cure. Hence the reason for the different "remission" terminology in the first place. The cancer could come back forcing you onto drugs once again. A true cure would not ever have you back in the doctors office for the same thing.
At this point, with today's medical technology, you can't speak of cancer in terms of cure, only remission.

Cancer is a cellular disease, individual cells cannot be observed intact in a living human (with very few exceptions).

Until scanners are developed that can detect individual cancer cells coursing through the blood or lymph, or sitting in an organ somewhere, we will continue to classify successful treatment of Cancer (i.e. no detectable tumor anywhere in the body) as remission. But there are still plenty of cases where a cancer patient has remained in remission for decades, even through the end of their life.

It's semantics at this point.
__________________
Life is a grave, and I dig it
SLC Flyfishing is offline   1 Reply With Quote


Reply
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Tags
cancer, cure, greed, pharmaceutical

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wow. Did i just invent the wheel -BigMac- OS X Mavericks (10.9) 32 Jun 3, 2014 09:00 AM
Why won't Apple re-invent email? pmontanarella iCloud and Apple Services 16 Dec 10, 2013 10:38 PM
Apple maps invent airfield in Ireland Neart iOS 6 0 Sep 20, 2012 07:45 AM
How to cure a sweet tooth TSE Community Discussion 29 Sep 14, 2012 11:34 AM
Wonder if MacRumor users would get as hyped in a cure for cancer as the new iPhone? Big.Mac.Daddy Wasteland 39 Sep 12, 2012 10:52 AM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:57 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC