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Old Jul 17, 2013, 11:19 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post


criticism for the new mac pro on the fact of expandability and upgradability is silly.

and another replies:

Not criticizing the new mac pro on the fact of expandability and upgradability based on current and future needs is silly.

But I kinda think either is silly. Neither way helps anyone figure out how to fit the new machine into their workflow - which IMO is the only concern.
I will take credit for the "and another replies". It was actually a play on his words. How is it silly if the objective is to not get stuck with an MP 6.1 by analyzing current and future needs? Everyone's "objective" is not to "fit" the new machine into their workflow.
It is quite possibly to figure out if the new machine "fits" without having to make the purchase. And that's with the limited information from apple.
Is there not a thing called constructive criticism?
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 12:29 AM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OS6-OSX View Post
I will take credit for the "and another replies". It was actually a play on his words. How is it silly if the objective is to not get stuck with an MP 6.1 by analyzing current and future needs? Everyone's "objective" is not to "fit" the new machine into their workflow.
It is quite possibly to figure out if the new machine "fits" without having to make the purchase. And that's with the limited information from apple.
Is there not a thing called constructive criticism?
There is - the purpose of which is to affect a positive change (Apple will not change from our crits tho - time tested!). And I see your point. And we're all wired differently. I'm an engineer by training and for a time by trade, so I look at problems with a mind to solve them. I look at pieces of different puzzles on the table and think: What's the best way to put these together - with lots of thought-models in the doing as needed. When done i ask if that's as good as some other way, inferior or superior to a different arrangement, or even different pieces. Rinse and repeat till I see and understand.

So to me, and perhaps me alone I dunno, it's useless to point to a piece and rant about it's shape. It either fits well and is as good or better than any alternative piece where it gets considered for use, or it's not where it gets tossed out for another piece. So far the MP6,1 looks better in all (Apple Centric) configurations I've thought-modeled with the single missing piece being price err, and a dubious variable in some minor (rarer) arrangements being the current and future price of external TB enclosures.

Last edited by Tesselator; Jul 18, 2013 at 01:07 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 01:44 AM   #528
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You are correct we are wired differently.
The "constructive criticism" was not for Apple. It was for anyone that sees the MP6.1 wants it but does not think it through.
I would look at those pieces of different puzzles and think if they should even be placed on the table.
As far as the MP6.1 looking better in all configurations I look at it and any computer not in the abstract.
Pertaining to the nMP I look at it running specific apps for a specific purpose. Not bench marks and numbers on paper.
Q1. How will Avid's Media Composer perform on it?
A1. The app itself will be fine until tested
Q2. How will R3D (4k 5k) and H.264 work via a TB2 enclosure?
Q3. What drive configuration in this enclosure will it take to enable the footage to work as it does currently?
Using the ATTO R644 I get the numbers you see below.
Q4. What speed will be obtained with the TB2 enclosure with drives?
This is a question nobody could answer.
Based on that the nMP (including the other items) would be a gamble just to see if things work. I am not anti-MP 6.1 just can see what is questionable.
Do you have specific write/read numbers pertaining to specific drives in a specific TB2 enclosure that match or exceed my current numbers?
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 01:59 AM   #529
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Service Manual - see page 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS6-OSX View Post
Pertaining to the nMP I look at it running specific apps for a specific purpose. Not bench marks and numbers on paper.
Of course. Anyone sane would.

Quote:
Q1. How will Avid's Media Composer perform on it?
A1. The app itself will be fine until tested
Q2. How will R3D (4k 5k) and H.264 work via a TB2 enclosure?
Q3. What drive configuration in this enclosure will it take to enable the footage to work as it does currently?
Using the ATTO R644 I get the numbers you see below.
Q4. What speed will be obtained with the TB2 enclosure with drives?
This is a question nobody could answer.
I've answered Q4 at least four times already. Others have independently answered it with relatively the same answers as well. The other questions aren't clear enough to make sense of - to me.

To light up all check boxes green a speed of about 800MB/s is needed. That's 5 or 6 fast rotational drives or three mid-range SSDs or two high-end SSDs in any interface you like: SATA III, USB3, TB, TB2, SAS, etc. If TB or TB2 then only one connection is needed - all others need to be divided accordingly.


Quote:
Do you have specific write/read numbers pertaining to specific drives in a specific TB2 enclosure that match or exceed my current numbers?
At this point we're all working with theoretical speeds and limitations. Even the USB3 on the MP6,1 might be better or worst than as found on other machines - so there is nothing hard and specific - which you already knew. The good news is that in WAY WAY over 90% of such cases the theoreticals arrived at through proper considerations are extremely close to the actuals. The ±alpha margins are much more than likely extremely small.

Last edited by Tesselator; Jul 18, 2013 at 02:23 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 02:28 AM   #530
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I'm not sure if you are aware, but it isn't out yet!!

----------



Right - but in the tower? No need, they will be better served in a centralized networked storage unit.
People can't seem to remember that storage and computing are different things. In any organization that has more than one computer, the WORST place to keep data is inside one of the desktop computers. You want the storage where ALL computers can get access to it.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 02:54 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
To light up all check boxes green a speed of about 800MB/s is needed. That's 5 or 6 fast rotational drives or three mid-range SSDs or two high-end SSDs in any interface you like: SATA III, USB3, TB, TB2, SAS, etc. If TB or TB2 then only one connection is needed - all others need to be divided accordingly
So not to belabor the issue you confirmed what my point has always been.
Based on the unknown price of the nMP and total in peripherals, it would not be advantageous to invest in the MP6.1
I'm getting the numbers shown earlier and to spend x-amount of money to get 800MB/s would be insane!
And "lighting" up all the lights does not insure footage to play properly.
Also, to get a complete picture, testing x-amount of NLE's on the same system would be needed. And I can tell you that Premiere 6 with it's Mercury Engine would play at 800MB's on the nMP.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:11 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by OS6-OSX View Post
So not to belabor the issue you confirmed what my point has always been.
I don't see how you arrive at any of these conclusions.


Quote:
Based on the unknown price of the nMP and total in peripherals, it would not be advantageous to invest in the MP6.1
If it's unknown how can it be advantageous or not? We don't know yet.


Quote:
I'm getting the numbers shown earlier and to spend x-amount of money to get 800MB/s would be insane!
I guess those numbers are wrong. I think I figured it at around $700 for 6TB of space and that's about the same or less than you paid for your card alone - without drives. Looks cheaper, not more expensive, and certainly not insane. I think I broke it down as follows:
3 two-drive USB3 enclosures at $75 each. ($225)
6 1TB (210MB/s) rotational drives at $70 each. ($420)
3 USB cables are $5 each ($15)

Total: $680
Top sustainable speed: between 1GB/s and 1.2GB/s
I think my TB2 estimate came to $1,500 or something. I forget. That's still the same or a little less than you paid for your card and drives unless you got a hell of a deal.


Quote:
And "lighting" up all the lights does not insure footage to play properly.
Pretty much it does, yes. That's what that utility is for. The cases where it wouldn't would be extremely few to none.


Quote:
Also, to get a complete picture, testing x-amount of NLE's on the same system would be needed.
No, just the first one which works. You can stop there. And if you think clearly allowing for tolerances, that will likely be the first one you test.


Quote:
And I can tell you that Premiere 6 with it's Mercury Engine would play at 800MB's on the nMP.
Cool.

Last edited by Tesselator; Jul 18, 2013 at 03:18 AM.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 08:42 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by chaosbunny View Post
...
Dude, your avatar freaked me out for a sec. I'm using teamviewer to log into my computer at home from work. I thought someone was screwing around with my mouse... and I live alone!!
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:26 PM   #534
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And the moral of the story is to never debate with someone who knows nothing about video editing.
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:33 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by OS6-OSX View Post
And the moral of the story is to never debate with someone who knows nothing about video editing.
Is that to me?

If so I know it and did it for a living for many years. I also built and sold supported NLE systems in many flavors. I also taught it at university.

So, umm...
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:36 PM   #536
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And the moral of the story is to never debate with someone who knows nothing about video editing.
Especially when they are more than happy to jump off the tracks of logic and reason to keep their argument alive. You can't win.


What is the maxim about people who fail in their chosen field , " If you can't do....."

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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:38 PM   #537
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I think the end of the story is the simple fact that if you appreciate the current MP your really not going to like the tube. If you like the rMBP you're probably going to like the tube. I don't mean this as a disrespect to any of the above parties, and I fit into the tower camp and I don't understand the other.

are you the 17" MBP or the 15" rMBP??
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Old Jul 18, 2013, 03:44 PM   #538
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Especially when they are more than happy to jump off the tracks of logic and reason to keep their argument alive. You can't win.
And even more-so when they are known to take property which doesn't belong to them and sell it for a profit. Or take up personal vendettas with people who disagree with them - belittling them in order to appear superior. Or people who resort to name-calling for the same reasons. And the worst of all are the people who jump into a discussion they're not involved in just to hound a person.

Those are the ones who need to adjustment their attitudes or maybe just put down the crack pipe the most, wouldn't you agree?

I sure am glad there's no one like that around here, aren't you?


Quote:
What is the maxim about people who fail in their chosen field , " If you can't do....."
Well I sure hope the sentence isn't finished with: "...then steal it."

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Old Jul 18, 2013, 05:19 PM   #539
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I think the end of the story is the simple fact that if you appreciate the current MP your really not going to like the tube. If you like the rMBP you're probably going to like the tube. I don't mean this as a disrespect to any of the above parties, and I fit into the tower camp and I don't understand the other.

are you the 17" MBP or the 15" rMBP??
(just to throw that out as being the end of story )

i like the tube and don't like the rMBP

[edit-- but have never used either of them so take that for what it's worth.. although i have used a glossy screen before and it was no good for me (often working outside)]

Last edited by flat five; Jul 18, 2013 at 05:36 PM.
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