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Old Aug 27, 2013, 12:54 AM   #51
Nugget
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Originally Posted by AXs View Post
I'm hearing the "shutting down is insanity/stupid" assertion by the last couple of you guys.

But I'm not seeing any facts or arguments to back up your statement.

Not saying I agree and/or disagree - Just saying that saying someone else is 'silly' or 'wrong'... doesn't automatically make you right....right?
There's nothing wrong with shutting down the laptop every time you stop using the machine. Just like there would be nothing inherently wrong with shutting it down, wrapping it carefully in the original cellophane wrap, and re-boxing it in the original packaging every night before you go to bed.

It's just senseless overhead with no benefit. There's no upside which makes it a curious habit.

I would turn your question around. Those who are shutting down the machine (in some cases as extreme as "Even if I run to 7-11 for 10 minutes") -- why? Why are you doing that? What do you think you're accomplishing? Sure, it boots in 10 seconds. But it wakes from sleep in 2.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 01:15 AM   #52
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I run my Imac 24 /7 only rebooting for Su's etc. My rMBP does get shut down when I'm done using it though...We also have a large media server ( Windows based) which will shortly be sold and replaced with a Mac Pro ( older version) that also runs 24 /7.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 01:54 AM   #53
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I almost never shut down any of my machines, always allow them to sleep.

However, Apple has the sleep routine down pat while the one on Win7 at least is clunky at best. I never know when its going to flake out on me.

Every few weeks though, I will let it run through a boot cycle to clear out the VM images on disk.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 02:18 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nugget View Post
There's nothing wrong with shutting down the laptop every time you stop using the machine. Just like there would be nothing inherently wrong with shutting it down, wrapping it carefully in the original cellophane wrap, and re-boxing it in the original packaging every night before you go to bed.

It's just senseless overhead with no benefit. There's no upside which makes it a curious habit.

I would turn your question around. Those who are shutting down the machine (in some cases as extreme as "Even if I run to 7-11 for 10 minutes") -- why? Why are you doing that? What do you think you're accomplishing? Sure, it boots in 10 seconds. But it wakes from sleep in 2.
I'm sorry, this is just ludacris in terms of argumentative validity.

You're going on a slippery slope here. Shutting down a computer/laptop has been a norm in the industry for ages - it doesn't mean someone should re-wrap and box their device. That's... nah just waste of my time really.

Your system continues to draw power in sleep mode, whether you personally find significance in the amount of power it draws.

Shutting down means it draws NO power whatsoever.


Again, I think sleep has it's uses, and shutdown has it's uses. But the arguments here are not withstanding.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:40 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by AXs View Post
I'm sorry, this is just ludacris in terms of argumentative validity.

You're going on a slippery slope here. Shutting down a computer/laptop has been a norm in the industry for ages - it doesn't mean someone should re-wrap and box their device. That's... nah just waste of my time really.

Your system continues to draw power in sleep mode, whether you personally find significance in the amount of power it draws.

Shutting down means it draws NO power whatsoever.


Again, I think sleep has it's uses, and shutdown has it's uses. But the arguments here are not withstanding.
did you click the link i provided earlier? shutting down does actually draw power. around .24W as opposed to .84W in sleep.
compared to the computer at "idle" with the display on pulling over 8 watts.

obviously his argument is hyperbole - and i agree with his point.

i also agree with your post on the previous page that some people have no idea what they are talking about. there is no harm whatsoever from powering your computer on and off - if it burns something out, something was wrong. same goes for leaving it on sleep near constantly- if that burns something out, something was wrong.

ultimately it's a time to benefit issue... as there is very little benefit most people don't feel like it's worth the time - even if that time is fairly short as your yourself have pointed out.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 07:08 AM   #56
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did you click the link i provided earlier? shutting down does actually draw power. around .24W as opposed to .84W in sleep.
compared to the computer at "idle" with the display on pulling over 8 watts.

obviously his argument is hyperbole - and i agree with his point.

i also agree with your post on the previous page that some people have no idea what they are talking about. there is no harm whatsoever from powering your computer on and off - if it burns something out, something was wrong. same goes for leaving it on sleep near constantly- if that burns something out, something was wrong.

ultimately it's a time to benefit issue... as there is very little benefit most people don't feel like it's worth the time - even if that time is fairly short as your yourself have pointed out.
Thanks for providing the link. I missed it the first time around. Looks like a really good read, gonna get through it once I get back at night. Cheers

edit: here's the link for the report on13" Haswell Air
http://images.apple.com/environment/...t_june2013.pdf
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 05:28 PM   #57
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I'm sorry, this is just ludacris in terms of argumentative validity.

You're going on a slippery slope here. Shutting down a computer/laptop has been a norm in the industry for ages
Which is an even poorer of an argument. Something "being industry norm for ages" doesn't mean anything. It used to be an "industry norm" to defragment your hard drive every couple of months. Technology evolves and things change.

To be clear, no one ever suggested that shutting down your computer does any harm. The point is that it has no tangible benefit with the modern hardware and modern OS. But ultimately, you can do whatever makes you happy.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 10:40 PM   #58
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Even if I run to 7-11 for 10 minutes, I shut down.
That's just about as absurd as re-boxing, and quite a distance from "nightly". I'm sure you've already shut down your laptop, though, and won't see this reply until you power back up in a few minutes.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 11:48 PM   #59
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I plan on shutting down the MacBook Air whenever I need a "fresh start". Is this a good rule of thumb? Does shutting it down and restarting processes help if it gets a bit sluggish? This used to work on my old PC.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 12:01 AM   #60
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I keep mine in sleep mode most of the time and only shut it down when I know that o won't be using it for a long time(at least a week).
Sleep works really well and have not had a problem with any sluggishness which requires me to restart from time to time, every other week or so, like I do on my desktop running Win 7.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 02:08 AM   #61
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That's just about as absurd as re-boxing, and quite a distance from "nightly". I'm sure you've already shut down your laptop, though, and won't see this reply until you power back up in a few minutes.
Im' not sure which mac you have that takes 5 minutes to shutdown and reboot - that you would compare it to a 5 minute action.

But my Haswell Air takes just a couple seconds to shut down, and 10 seconds to boot. I recommend you get it if it is in budget. Worth every bang of the buck.


Anyways, I guess if you have only one computer- The Air, you want to leave it on forever? My mac-pro equivalent custom pc is always on, so I can see what you mean in that sense. My desktops have always been on 24/7. I just don't think laptops are designed to run on and on.

But it's 2013, having just an ultra book must be troublesome. I mean forget raw processing power, you've got to at least have a graphics card in 2013 right? Sound card optional.

But hey, whatever makes you happy.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 05:57 AM   #62
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Im' not sure which mac you have that takes 5 minutes to shutdown and reboot - that you would compare it to a 5 minute action.

But my Haswell Air takes just a couple seconds to shut down, and 10 seconds to boot. I recommend you get it if it is in budget. Worth every bang of the buck.


Anyways, I guess if you have only one computer- The Air, you want to leave it on forever? My mac-pro equivalent custom pc is always on, so I can see what you mean in that sense. My desktops have always been on 24/7. I just don't think laptops are designed to run on and on.

But it's 2013, having just an ultra book must be troublesome. I mean forget raw processing power, you've got to at least have a graphics card in 2013 right? Sound card optional.

But hey, whatever makes you happy.
you're definitely not a big fan of exaggeration of the sake of emphasis are you?


first, he didn't say 5 minutes he said a few
second, i think he was giving you a little gentle teasing.
finally - regarding your comment that you "just don't think laptops are designed to run on and on," i would argue that yes they absolutely are. or at least the macbooks are. hasn't that been the big point of discovery for us in this very thread?

as it were i'm replying not pile more on you but rather to comment that my 2013 mba actually takes an relative eternity to shut down.... compared to the 11 second boot up time anyway
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 10:58 AM   #63
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[MOD NOTE]
Closed for moderator review

I removed a few off topic posts. Lets avoid the bickering. The thread is now open.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 12:33 PM   #64
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Sleep during the day, shut down overnight. That's just my preference.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 01:00 PM   #65
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I tried this last night just to see how it worked..

I charged it up to 100% before going to bed, unplugged it and let it sleep. (I do keep power nap off and have the "put hard disks to sleep when possible" box checked)

I opened the lid 8 hours later and it was still at 100% battery. Case closed? I doubt it..but I know I won't be shutting down at night any time soon.
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Old Aug 29, 2013, 12:16 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by jadAce View Post
I plan on shutting down the MacBook Air whenever I need a "fresh start". Is this a good rule of thumb? Does shutting it down and restarting processes help if it gets a bit sluggish? This used to work on my old PC.
No, shutting down has no benefit on OS X.
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Old Aug 29, 2013, 12:23 PM   #67
DisplacedMic
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No, shutting down has no benefit on OS X.
well that's not entirely true. if something goes wrong the first thing i always do is reboot - that fixes most "problems" right there.
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Old Aug 29, 2013, 12:25 PM   #68
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No, shutting down has no benefit on OS X.
You know, I've read that before but i don't think that's true. Very often I have had my MBA act sluggish or strange, usually after using the AppStore, and a reboot clears that right up. Not sure if it has any relation to the infamous memory leaks of PCs and Windows, but OS X is not immune to strange behavior that a good ol reboot won't fix.
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Old Aug 29, 2013, 12:42 PM   #69
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You know, I've read that before but i don't think that's true. Very often I have had my MBA act sluggish or strange, usually after using the AppStore, and a reboot clears that right up. Not sure if it has any relation to the infamous memory leaks of PCs and Windows, but OS X is not immune to strange behavior that a good ol reboot won't fix.
kernel panic for one.
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Old Aug 30, 2013, 06:00 AM   #70
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I always let my MBA sleep during the night. I haven't tested it with the MBA, but when I owned a MBP with a HDD I tested the power usage. During startup it asked a lot more power than when I would have let it sleep for days. I tested this without the battery in the laptop and when it was hooked on to the charger.

My conclusion at the time was that starting up would require the computer to use more resources. Before the firmware loads you sometimes hear the fans spinning a little faster. Sure it probably doesn't do a lot of damage if you do this once a day. But somehow it feels that if you do this a couple of times a day that it could potentially shorten the life of the MBA. At the time I also asked Apple and they also advised to just let it sleep because that would be better in the long run.

Never thought about it again until this topic, it could be different with SSD powered computers, but maybe it's just time for a renewed test.
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Old Sep 2, 2013, 05:23 PM   #71
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I haven't tested it with the MBA, but when I owned a MBP with a HDD I tested the power usage. During startup it asked a lot more power than when I would have let it sleep for days.
Things are certainly improved with SSD but electronics in general always eat up more power when you enter the transient boot up state. Electronic currents spike up, fans whirl and take a toll on the hardware, no matter how small. Electronics are designed for the steady state without human interference. I think the point of having a machine is to have it run consistently. My current impression is that constantly booting up will have an impact on the life of the hardware.

But we all have our quirks and that is perfectly okay too.

Last edited by beautifulcoder; Sep 2, 2013 at 05:25 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old Sep 2, 2013, 05:50 PM   #72
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Time to do some reading guys

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/myths.html

Here's a quote from the computer's sub-category on his site:

Quote:
You won't wear your computer out any faster by cycling it once a day, or even a few times a day. Modern computers just aren't that fragile. I did hardware troubleshooting at Apple, by the way. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe Jonathan Koomey, a project scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, who says, "PCs are not hurt by turning them on and off a few times a day." (Wall St. Journal) The useful life of a computer these days is only a few years anyway. The computer will become obsolete long before you wear it out, no matter how often you cycle it. Bottom line: Turn your computer off when you're done with it (or simply Sleep it), and don't worry about it. (more on this topic...)

It also doesn't take more energy to start a computer than to keep it running. The only extra energy it takes to start a computer is the two minutes or so it takes to start up, which is barely different than any other two minutes' of use. You'll always save energy by turning your computer off when you're not using it. Of course you don't have to turn it off since you can easily use the sleep or standby mode instead.

The myth of "turning it off uses more energy than keeping it on all the time" exists for just about every device that exists, and it's wrong in every single case, in practical terms. (Meaning, you will never, ever, ever see any savings on your electrical bill by keeping something on all the time vs. turning it off. Period.) You will always save electricity by turning your device off when you're not using it (or sleeping it, if it's a computer).

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Old Sep 2, 2013, 06:06 PM   #73
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Time to do some reading guys
Yeah, I particularly liked this bit from the article you linked:

"Of course you don't have to turn it off since you can easily use the sleep or standby mode instead."

Sounds like great advice to me.
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Old Sep 2, 2013, 06:27 PM   #74
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you shouldn't take quotes out of context. Just a personal advice. It doesn't weigh as much, and most often is obvious for manipulated part of speech.

But yes, after reading his site and others the last day or 2 - it seems putting a laptop to sleep is as good as shutting down. I know that now, plus with reference to Apple's green report.

We learn something new everyday with productive research.


The quote however, was meant to debunk the idea that shutting down and booting draws more power - as many have stated in this tread.

Good day.
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