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Old Nov 16, 2012, 08:54 PM   #126
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As I keep repeating, in the end it's all about choice. If not a single person ever used the desktop on MS products then so what? You can still use it as a "dumb tablet" like the ipad, at that point it just becomes a popularity contest and while Apple has a huge following I think people heavily underestimate Microsoft.
I think the problem is that support for legacy desktop mode comes with a cost. For instance, the Surface Pro is thicker and heavier than Surface RT. And it's been reported that even on Surface RT, the OS + Office take up nearly 16 GB of storage. And the side of the Surface where the keyboard cover attaches is uneven, making that side uncomfortable to grip when using it without the cover. All these factors detract from using the Surface as a tablet, for the sake of supporting legacy desktop programs. It might be great for people who need to use such programs, but as for those who don't need such programs, they end up paying the cost for having a choice without getting any benefits. So weighing the cost/benefits, those people would likely pick an iPad or Amdroid tablet over a Surface.

So choice is good. I, for one, am glad I'm not stuck with just the Surface.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 09:00 PM   #127
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I don't see a problem requiring one.
It won't have a touchscreen. And there will be a lot of touch-enabled apps for the surface.
Office, email, and browsers are not "a select few cherry-picked cases." They represent the vast and overwhelming majority of use cases for most users. The fact that there are hundreds of thousands of legacy apps is irrelevant for several reasons:
  • Most users don't use them.
  • Those that do, can. We've gone over that. If you desperately need to use some legacy app, you can attach the keyboard and/or use the stylus. The fact you can do so doesn't mean the tablet is useless without doing so, just not all that useful for some legacy apps.
  • The fact you can at least use legacy apps effectively adds those hundreds of thousands of legacy apps into MS's app store, in the same sense that the iPad inherited lower-res iPhone apps. Is the user experience great? No. But they at least can use them, unlike on any other tablet except via Remote Desktop.
  • The apps that most people will want to use but which are horrifically legacy will be either ported or replaced by similar touch-enabled apps, because that's how capitalism tends to work. Demand will cause supply.

The reason is that there are a crapload of touch-enabled iOS and Android apps, and people buy tablets from Apple and Google partners because of that. Now, all the cool apps will be touch-enabled on the Surface and people will be able to use legacy apps. Score for MS.

Have you ever used Remote Desktop on a tablet? It really isn't all that confusing. And legacy games? Really? The fact that some legacy games won't play well isn't going to sink the Surface. People just won't play them, just like most gamers don't play legacy games now.

You seem to be stuck in a belief that the Surface will just be a tablet form of Windows with only legacy apps on it and no way to effectively use them. Instead, it will have all the most-commonly used apps in touch-enabled form, tons of games (you seriously think the game developers won't develop for MS?), etc. AND there will be all the legacy apps as an added bonus to ease the transition.

I would freaking love to be able to run all my OS X apps on an iPad. But I can't. Were I an MS user (other than at work), I'd be thrilled at the prospects of the Surface Pro. Because, 99% of the time when I didn't need legacy apps, I'd have a lightweight tablet. And when I did, I'd still have a lightweight tablet - but one that could run legacy apps.
I just saw a touchscreen capable Ultrabook at Best Buy the other day, running Windows 8.

Your problem has been solved.

Windows 8 for Surface Pro has no reason for existing, according to your above use cases!
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 04:19 AM   #128
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I think the problem is that support for legacy desktop mode comes with a cost. For instance, the Surface Pro is thicker and heavier than Surface RT. And it's been reported that even on Surface RT, the OS + Office take up nearly 16 GB of storage. And the side of the Surface where the keyboard cover attaches is uneven, making that side uncomfortable to grip when using it without the cover. All these factors detract from using the Surface as a tablet, for the sake of supporting legacy desktop programs. It might be great for people who need to use such programs, but as for those who don't need such programs, they end up paying the cost for having a choice without getting any benefits. So weighing the cost/benefits, those people would likely pick an iPad or Amdroid tablet over a Surface.

So choice is good. I, for one, am glad I'm not stuck with just the Surface.
You are right about the Surface Pro, in its current iteration it may be a niche product due to its size and battery life, although we will see if MS surprises us. The true game changer IMO is the Atom processor, these units (like the one I'm typing into currently) are amazing, FULL windows desktop and legacy program support with battery life just as good as the ipad, same thinness and form factor, and best of all same price. If MS can sort out there unfinished OS I think people are going to see that choice of being on a toy OS versus a real OS and some of them are going to opt for windows. It's all about choice, and I, for one, am incredibly glad I am not stuck just with iOS.

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I just saw a touchscreen capable Ultrabook at Best Buy the other day, running Windows 8.

Your problem has been solved.

Windows 8 for Surface Pro has no reason for existing, according to your above use cases!
Yes the touchscreen laptops are amazing, the touchscreen desktops are amazing as well, they give that Minority Report feel. But you are mistaken, they don't solve my problem. I need a tablet on the road, and a laptop at home but I need them BOTH to run the OS which runs my programs. So I totally don't get your connection, I think you are severely misunderstanding the difference between a laptop and a tablet and the surface strategy.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:34 AM   #129
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You are right about the Surface Pro, in its current iteration it may be a niche product due to its size and battery life, although we will see if MS surprises us. The true game changer IMO is the Atom processor, these units (like the one I'm typing into currently) are amazing, FULL windows desktop and legacy program support with battery life just as good as the ipad, same thinness and form factor, and best of all same price. If MS can sort out there unfinished OS I think people are going to see that choice of being on a toy OS versus a real OS and some of them are going to opt for windows. It's all about choice, and I, for one, am incredibly glad I am not stuck just with iOS.

----------



Yes the touchscreen laptops are amazing, the touchscreen desktops are amazing as well, they give that Minority Report feel. But you are mistaken, they don't solve my problem. I need a tablet on the road, and a laptop at home but I need them BOTH to run the OS which runs my programs. So I totally don't get your connection, I think you are severely misunderstanding the difference between a laptop and a tablet and the surface strategy.
Dude, I respectfully think your use case is like 5% or so of the whole tablet market. Otherwise, one could be forgiven for concluding that the needs you have are quite coincidentally 100% fulfilled by the Surface Pro.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:15 AM   #130
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Dude, I respectfully think your use case is like 5% or so of the whole tablet market. Otherwise, one could be forgiven for concluding that the needs you have are quite coincidentally 100% fulfilled by the Surface Pro.
I don't think so, but again we are just espousing personal opinions here, nothing more. I believe there are a lot of consumers who want to combine their tablet and laptop, consumers who want to take the OS they have used for 20 years with them instead of compromising into a watered down OS. If iOS was so powerful then we would have seen it take over laptops, but that isn't the case, so why isn't iOS on any laptops? Because people see laptops as power devices to get work done, to be productive, etc. iOS was a necessary evil because of the hardware constraints of the day, but those hardware constraints do not exist anymore and once people see that they can take EXACTLY what they have on their laptop on their tablet it's going to be a different story.

Certainly I won't argue that we have to transition to a more elegant and easier system than the old desktop, but that's just common sense and sheer obviousness. With the astronomical numbers of windows users worldwide you can bet that developers will step up and get us to where we need to similar to how Microsoft Office was rewritten. But once again, you have the CHOICE to run legacy programs, or to run revamped touch friendly programs, or to treat it as a dumb tablet and just run apps. Feel free to stick your head in the sand and obtusely deny the value of the windows tablets, but I think a significant majority will find them useful.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:05 AM   #131
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I don't think so, but again we are just espousing personal opinions here, nothing more. I believe there are a lot of consumers who want to combine their tablet and laptop, consumers who want to take the OS they have used for 20 years with them instead of compromising into a watered down OS. If iOS was so powerful then we would have seen it take over laptops, but that isn't the case, so why isn't iOS on any laptops? Because people see laptops as power devices to get work done, to be productive, etc. iOS was a necessary evil because of the hardware constraints of the day, but those hardware constraints do not exist anymore and once people see that they can take EXACTLY what they have on their laptop on their tablet it's going to be a different story.

Certainly I won't argue that we have to transition to a more elegant and easier system than the old desktop, but that's just common sense and sheer obviousness. With the astronomical numbers of windows users worldwide you can bet that developers will step up and get us to where we need to similar to how Microsoft Office was rewritten. But once again, you have the CHOICE to run legacy programs, or to run revamped touch friendly programs, or to treat it as a dumb tablet and just run apps. Feel free to stick your head in the sand and obtusely deny the value of the windows tablets, but I think a significant majority will find them useful.
Good morning spinedoc, hope all is well with you. I think your suggestion of iOS being a watered down desktop OS is like saying an apple is like a hard red orange. You're making a comparison that does not and should not be made. iOS and Android are extremely powerful and fully capable OSes. They may not be able to run a program designed to run on your pc, but that doesn't make them any less of an OS.

Further, you're question of why if iOS was so good, why isn't it running laptops now is also missing the point. Tablets are simply a new device that need a new OS that unfortunately for you is different than what you're used to. A laptop affords a different user interface that is just an extension of a desktop human to computer interface.

You just bought into MS's marketing push that the tablet should be a laptop.

I am right now typing on a new iPad 4 that I picked up yesterday. I'm still not convinced it will work for my particular needs, but I now can say for certain that what the tablet offers is so distinctly different, as far as user experience that I don't know why you'd want it to be more laptop like.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:27 AM   #132
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Good morning spinedoc, hope all is well with you. I think your suggestion of iOS being a watered down desktop OS is like saying an apple is like a hard red orange. You're making a comparison that does not and should not be made. iOS and Android are extremely powerful and fully capable OSes. They may not be able to run a program designed to run on your pc, but that doesn't make them any less of an OS.

Further, you're question of why if iOS was so good, why isn't it running laptops now is also missing the point. Tablets are simply a new device that need a new OS that unfortunately for you is different than what you're used to. A laptop affords a different user interface that is just an extension of a desktop human to computer interface.

You just bought into MS's marketing push that the tablet should be a laptop.

I am right now typing on a new iPad 4 that I picked up yesterday. I'm still not convinced it will work for my particular needs, but I now can say for certain that what the tablet offers is so distinctly different, as far as user experience that I don't know why you'd want it to be more laptop like.
Certainly iOS works for many many users needs and they don't need any more than that, but it's still a watered down OS. If it wasn't then why wouldn't Apple put it on all their desktops and laptops? It is much more efficient, needs much less hardware and has all day battery life, a complete no brainer for their macbooks no? I don't mean watered down to sound disparaging and should find a more neutral term, but that's exactly what it is.

As for tablets needing a different OS, why? Once again you sound like someone in the 90s saying Laptops need a different OS, and let me tell you from personal experience the first laptops ran like crap, but hardware evolved like it always does. Certainly a tablet is an extension of the laptop and desktop experience, I don't see the difference ideally.

As for buying into MS marketing, simply no. The way I use my tablet fits my needs, I could care less about marketing. I understand my needs are not everyones needs, but I believe there are a lot of users who function this way, as opposed to some on here who think almost nobody does and MS will fail because of that. Buying into marketing is the job of Apple fans, look around you, myself included as I have purchased many iphones, ipads and laptops from Apple.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 07:51 AM   #133
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Feel free to stick your head in the sand and obtusely deny the value of the windows tablets, but I think a significant majority will find them useful.
I'm not saying there isn't value in being able to run the occasional legacy program on a tablet, but I do wonder how many people would find that ability significantly useful. For instance, I like to occasionary adjust the coding in a web page -- for this task, I currently use my desktop. I have some older HTML coding programs on my desktop that I like to use. Would I like to be able to code HTML on my iPad? Sometimes I find myself thinking about it. But do I want to run my desktop HTML program on the iPad? No, I would just find an HTML coding app written for the iPad. The number of people with tasks that require them to stick with a legacy desktop program instead of moving on to a tablet app can't be that many, relatively speaking. And desktop programs are easier to use on a desktop -- if I have to use a desktop program, then I prefer to do it sitting at a desktop. So the number of people who are stuck with a legacy desktop program AND who wants to use it on a tablet while mobile are even smaller.

I do dream of a day when a device as small as the iPad runs all my desktop AND tablet apps, and I only need that one device to do everything I want, and when I'm at home or the office, it docks into a desktop setup with full monitor, keyboard and pointing device, and when undocked it is a touch screen tablet. But I do not want to have to run desktop programs while my device is in a tablet mode. Or run tablet apps when I'm in desktop mode. I think this is where Win8 is off on the wrong foot, because it tries to run tablet apps (Metro apps) on the desktop. I much prefer Apple's approach of having separate OS for the desktop and the tablet, and gradually cross-pollinating features from one to the other. So every year, OS X gets a little more iOS-like, while iOS gets more productivity features. In the meanwhile, Pages on the desktop is still Pages for the desktop. I'm not staring at a version of Office that is more optimized for a tablet than a desktop.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:06 AM   #134
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I'm not saying there isn't value in being able to run the occasional legacy program on a tablet, but I do wonder how many people would find that ability significantly useful. For instance, I like to occasionary adjust the coding in a web page -- for this task, I currently use my desktop. I have some older HTML coding programs on my desktop that I like to use. Would I like to be able to code HTML on my iPad? Sometimes I find myself thinking about it. But do I want to run my desktop HTML program on the iPad? No, I would just find an HTML coding app written for the iPad. The number of people with tasks that require them to stick with a legacy desktop program instead of moving on to a tablet app can't be that many, relatively speaking. And desktop programs are easier to use on a desktop -- if I have to use a desktop program, then I prefer to do it sitting at a desktop. So the number of people who are stuck with a legacy desktop program AND who wants to use it on a tablet while mobile are even smaller.

I do dream of a day when a device as small as the iPad runs all my desktop AND tablet apps, and I only need that one device to do everything I want, and when I'm at home or the office, it docks into a desktop setup with full monitor, keyboard and pointing device, and when undocked it is a touch screen tablet. But I do not want to have to run desktop programs while my device is in a tablet mode. Or run tablet apps when I'm in desktop mode. I think this is where Win8 is off on the wrong foot, because it tries to run tablet apps (Metro apps) on the desktop. I much prefer Apple's approach of having separate OS for the desktop and the tablet, and gradually cross-pollinating features from one to the other. So every year, OS X gets a little more iOS-like, while iOS gets more productivity features. In the meanwhile, Pages on the desktop is still Pages for the desktop. I'm not staring at a version of Office that is more optimized for a tablet than a desktop.
But don't you at least want the choice to do those things? Your scenario is perfectly viable TODAY, you can do all those things currently.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:30 AM   #135
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Certainly a tablet is an extension of the laptop and desktop experience, I don't see the difference ideally.
Have you used an iPad extensively? IMO, there is a huge difference between iOS touch interface and desktop/laptop interface. One is definitely not an extension of the other. This is THE huge philosophical difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the tablet as just another form of PC, while Apple thinks of it as a new category of device.

And after using iPads since the original was first released, I have to say I agree with Apple. Touching a device to interact with it is a very different experience to interacting with a device using mouse and keyboard. For instance, something as simple as pinch to zoom -- it's a gesture that makes sense on a touch device. Now that it's been retroactively brought back to the desktop so you can use the gesture on a desktop via a trackpad, it might seem like the gesture makes perfect sense on a desktop too, and one might think that the desktop experience and tablet experience are an extension of one another. But in all the decades we've been using desktops, nobody thought to do pinch to zoom. Because that is something that was born out of a touch experience, and is not an extension of the desktop experience, even if it has retroactively been brought back to the desktop.

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But don't you at least want the choice to do those things? *Your scenario is perfectly viable TODAY, you can do all those things currently.
Are you referring to all the Win8 hybrids and convertibles coming out now? So far, everything I've seen make a less than ideal tablet. The ones with keyboards that don't come off, well keyboards necessarily add bulk and weight. Surface's keyboard cover might solve the problem, but the Pro will be thicker and heavier than the iPad, and RT only offers a crippled desktop. As for Win8 devices with detachable keyboards, I know i'd always be second-guessing myself over whether to bring the keyboard with me or not, and often making the wrong choices.

But the crucial thing is I don't trust Win8 to provide either the best desktop experience or the best tablet experience. Microsoft might eventually get it right with Win9 or 10, but right now, it's a strange mix of desktop and tablet that's unsatisfying in either mode.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:47 AM   #136
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Have you used an iPad extensively? IMO, there is a huge difference between iOS touch interface and desktop/laptop interface. One is definitely not an extension of the other. This is THE huge philosophical difference between Microsoft and Apple. Microsoft sees the tablet as just another form of PC, while Apple thinks of it as a new category of device.

And after using iPads since the original was first released, I have to say I agree with Apple. Touching a device to interact with it is a very different experience to interacting with a device using mouse and keyboard. For instance, something as simple as pinch to zoom -- it's a gesture that makes sense on a touch device. Now that it's been retroactively brought back to the desktop so you can use the gesture on a desktop via a trackpad, it might seem like the gesture makes perfect sense on a desktop too, and one might think that the desktop experience and tablet experience are an extension of one another. But in all the decades we've been using desktops, nobody thought to do pinch to zoom. Because that is something that was born out of a touch experience, and is not an extension of the desktop experience, even if it has retroactively been brought back to the desktop.



Are you referring to all the Win8 hybrids and convertibles coming out now? So far, everything I've seen make a less than ideal tablet. The ones with keyboards that don't come off, well keyboards necessarily add bulk and weight. Surface's keyboard cover might solve the problem, but the Pro will be thicker and heavier than the iPad, and RT only offers a crippled desktop. As for Win8 devices with detachable keyboards, I know i'd always be second-guessing myself over whether to bring the keyboard with me or not, and often making the wrong choices.

But the crucial thing is I don't trust Win8 to provide either the best desktop experience or the best tablet experience. Microsoft might eventually get it right with Win9 or 10, but right now, it's a strange mix of desktop and tablet that's unsatisfying in either mode.
Yes I've owned the first 3 ipads, I agree fully, there is a HUGE difference between ios and a full OS, in fact that's pretty much the entire basis of my argument. I agree on the difference in philosophy as well between apple and MS. But that's where we part ways, why have a different device you have to learn, find programs for, worry about interoptability, carry around, etc etc? There is just both a redundancy without the benefit of interoptability that hamstrings ios.

As for touch functions on the desktop, I think they work incredibly well, MS has done a great job and certainly they will continue to refine, invent and yes, even copy to improve it. I'm currently replying to you on a win8 tablet on the desktop in desktop IE10, I'm certainly not having any difficulty navigating and functioning on my desktop only using touch. This difficulty is highly overblown.

My tablet is as thin as your iPad, it has the same battery life, it costs the same, so besides the ecosystem which can be countered with windows ecosystem, you haven't shown me a single reason why ios is superior, but have just reinforced why its inferior.

On your analysis of window 8 as an OS I don't disagree, if MS doesn't fix the slapped together half and half OS it will hurt them. Personally I love it and have no issue, bit I'm a power user, its the average consumer they need to worry about. Apple was genius in marketing to the grandmas of the world with ios, now MS needs to do the same while also marketing the strength of having a real OS and the choices that opens up.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:58 AM   #137
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I just saw a touchscreen capable Ultrabook at Best Buy the other day, running Windows 8.

Your problem has been solved.

Windows 8 for Surface Pro has no reason for existing, according to your above use cases!
Well, except for everyone who wants to use a tablet as a tablet when they're not actually using legacy apps, which would be a very large segment of the population.

Just as I think on-screen keyboards on a touchscreen are a pain, I think keyboards permanently attached to touchscreens are a pain.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:50 AM   #138
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Yes I've owned the first 3 ipads, I agree fully, there is a HUGE difference between ios and a full OS, in fact that's pretty much the entire basis of my argument. *I agree on the difference in philosophy as well between apple and MS. *But that's where we part ways, why have a different device you have to learn, find programs for, worry about interoptability, carry around, etc etc? *There is just both a redundancy without the benefit of interoptability that hamstrings ios.
Hmmmm. Part of this may be that you and I have different requirements in terms of our mobile computing. That is, I get the feeling I don't need to do as much as you on my mobile devices. I'm content with what the iPad can do, and I wait until I'm on my desktop or notebook to do "real" work. I certainly don't feel like I'm hamstrung by iOS, or having to search for separate apps for each platform. I guess in effect that is what I did (Pages on my iPad, Word on my desktop, etc.), but it only happened once, and now that I have an established workflow between iOS and my desktop, I don't think about it any more.

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As for touch functions on the desktop, I think they work incredibly well, MS has done a great job and certainly they will continue to refine, invent and yes, even copy to improve it. I'm currently replying to you on a win8 tablet on the desktop in desktop IE10, I'm certainly not having any difficulty navigating and functioning on my desktop only using touch. This difficulty is highly overblown.
I probably should give Win8 more of a chance, but right now, I don't see much reason to bother. I'm happy with iOS. Supposing everything else is equal, the only "advantage" to Win8 is the ability to run legacy desktop programs, which I personally don't need. I understand that some people do need/want that option, but I just don't happen to be one of those people.

And I may be biased, but I suspect that the "average" user is more like me than like you. And to the grandmas of the world, "You can run desktop legacy programs" is not a selling point. The more this discussion goes on, the more it seems to me that Win8 is aimed at niche markets of power users and people with very specific computing requirements, like needing to run that legacy desktop program your company wrote 10 years ago. iOS may be underpowered compared to Win8 (which could be debatable, but I'm not ready to argue that right now), but it is sufficient for the needs of the average user -- and Microsoft has a tremendous disadvantage to overcome because they are so late to the tablet scene.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 10:07 AM   #139
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Hmmmm. Part of this may be that you and I have different requirements in terms of our mobile computing. That is, I get the feeling I don't need to do as much as you on my mobile devices. I'm content with what the iPad can do, and I wait until I'm on my desktop or notebook to do "real" work. I certainly don't feel like I'm hamstrung by iOS, or having to search for separate apps for each platform. I guess in effect that is what I did (Pages on my iPad, Word on my desktop, etc.), but it only happened once, and now that I have an established workflow between iOS and my desktop, I don't think about it any more.



I probably should give Win8 more of a chance, but right now, I don't see much reason to bother. I'm happy with iOS. Supposing everything else is equal, the only "advantage" to Win8 is the ability to run legacy desktop programs, which I personally don't need. I understand that some people do need/want that option, but I just don't happen to be one of those people.

And I may be biased, but I suspect that the "average" user is more like me than like you. And to the grandmas of the world, "You can run desktop legacy programs" is not a selling point. The more this discussion goes on, the more it seems to me that Win8 is aimed at niche markets of power users and people with very specific computing requirements, like needing to run that legacy desktop program your company wrote 10 years ago. iOS may be underpowered compared to Win8 (which could be debatable, but I'm not ready to argue that right now), but it is sufficient for the needs of the average user -- and Microsoft has a tremendous disadvantage to overcome because they are so late to the tablet scene.
Yeah I don't blame you, if you are happy with iOS, have purchased their ecosystem and are invested in it then you have little reason to switch. You definitely have good points and it's not that I totally disagree with you at all on a lot of them. iOS is a good OS for some people, no doubt about that, but it doesn't fulfill everyone, but then what does?

As for being niche and for power users, the thing is that the Atom powered windows 8 pro tablets are as thin as ipads, have the same battery life, have the same price, and have the capability to run "apps" where you can ignore the desktop even exists, but you still have the choice to use the desktop if you are a power user. You can use it only as a tablet, but using it docked as a laptop provides a full 100% laptop experience which the ipad doesn't. That's why I think the average consumer may find themselves considering it over an ipad.

Microsoft has a lot of disadvantages to overcome, including its own botched windows 8 release, the betrayal of hardware OEMs who left MS hanging on release with no hardware, the existence of RT which is a huge consumer confuser, and Windows 8 itself which hasn't meshed touch and desktop successfully.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:03 AM   #140
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Feel free to stick your head in the sand and obtusely deny the value of the windows tablets, but I think a significant majority will find them useful.
A significant majority of what part of the computer or tablet buying market? And how many of those who find them useful will purchase one?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:41 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
A significant majority of what part of the computer or tablet buying market? And how many of those who find them useful will purchase one?
How the hell would I know? I'm just a nobody having a friendly discussion on an internet forum, I'm not an analyst providing information to a multi billion dollar company.
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What would the world be like if laptops were released with iOS?
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 11:45 AM   #142
Irishman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc77 View Post
How the hell would I know? I'm just a nobody having a friendly discussion on an internet forum, I'm not an analyst providing information to a multi billion dollar company.
Mmmm, I was afraid of that.
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