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Old Jun 1, 2013, 02:49 AM   #701
calaverasgrande
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Originally Posted by alephnull12 View Post
Those guys from Tableau are probably weenies. Never ask and IT guy or any nerd what's cool, because generally speaking they don't have a clue. Or at least, even if they are right, what they say has no meaning so far as the rest (99% of the planet) is concerned. Nothing Apple has ever done that was wildly successful ever had weenie-appeal.

You saw it with the mac. All the weenies said the mac was stupid and a waste of money, all you needed was DOS. They mocked mac users and their cute little garbage cans and said DOS was what real computer users use. Then Windows 3.1 came around. The UI sucked. The weenies said that to be a cool computer user, you had to know how to fool around with Regedit, and it was still better than Mac. It wasn't. It sucked. Then came windows XP. It was basically a mac. Then the weenies immediately went to their control panels and changed their OS theme to the old Windows NT one, instead of the slicker XP one, because real nerd don't need fancy color and they believed it was essential for the ordinary user to save a couple GPU cycles on rendering. Which is a load of crap.

Then came the iPhone. The consensus among weenies was that to have a good smartphone, you had to have a physical keyboard (like the Blackberry), or you had to have a pen input device (like the Palm). Because all weenies know, any serious person types on a keyboard where you can feel the keys with your fingertips, or, if writing, uses a more precise instrument to point like a pen than your finger and learns to write in a heretofore never described hieroglyphic (Palm). Nerdy little guys everywhere were keeping little plastic pens for their Palm computers in their pocket protectors, and they felt this was important to have the finest pointed pointing device possible. Because precision is very important! Then the iPhone came out, and someone decided that all the weenies were just weenies, it's much easier to just point with a finger. They didn't include a pen, because to do so would have been a problem for a capacitive touch screen, and because they knew that if they included a pen, all the weenies would write programs for the iPhone with 50 or a hundred tiny buttons the size of sprinkles on every screen that you could only press with a very tiny weenie-pen that the ordinary person didn't want to bother to keep around. As always, the weenies were completely wrong about what ordinary people wanted. Weenies wanted a precise technological device. Ordinary people wanted something with the lowest intimidation factor possible that could be used without frankly having to engage their brain any more than possible. Because really, they've got other things to do.

Then came the iPad. Once again, weenies thought this must have a keyboard or some other sort of physical input device, because obviously if you're going to pay more for something more useful, it has to be more powerful and allow for faster, more efficient input. Once again, the weenies were wrong. Apple released the iPad, which was basically just a big iPhone. One of the biggest weenies of them all, Steve Ballmer, laughed. Then Apple sold a gazillion of them, and it wasn't so funny anymore. Engineers were disappointed to see such a "stupid" product sell so well, since it would be so much more engineering-chic to have a lightweight device with a tiny keyboard to type on at their engineering meetings. Meanwhile, ordinary people sat on their couches using their iPads, slovenly chowing down Cheetos and spilling crumbs all over the impervious surface, poking their fingers around the web for an hour or two before falling asleep with their more or less indestructible panel-shaped ipads falling between the cracks of their couch. Little two-year old kids poked around at their ipad screens giggling, spilling juice on them, and watching reruns of Barney the Dinosaur.

Weenies are almost always wrong about what 90% of the world wants.

GRANTED, I do think that the iPhone skeumorphism could use some refreshment. From my perspective, the most important thing would be to update / regionalize it in some way. For example, I'm pretty sure that everyone in the US knows what the general use of yellow lined paper is, but that may not be the case elsewhere in the world. In Japan, I seriously doubt they use yellow lined paper for much of anything. But that's a regionalization problem, not a general interface problem.

Because it's a notepad. For taking notes, and clipping and pasting little bits of information from here and there into one place for future reference. Having a notepad that uses multiple fonts is actually a pain in the ass, because then every time you cut and paste a little piece of information from the web into your notepad, it comes out with a different font and a different font size, designed for a web page ten times the size, looking quite retarded and illegible. Then, you'll find when you continue on typing, you're typing with the same font as the last letter of the last thing you pasted into your notepad, which is probably huge and taking up 10 times the space that you want it to. Then you have to dick around trying to get the font back to some semblance of something uniform and orderly (organized). It's a huge pain in the ass.

Unfortunately, the genius who made the NotePad for OS X didn't get this, so if you cut and paste things from elsewhere it comes out looking like crap.
No hard feelings, "Aleph Null" us IT weenies talk trash on you mere users all the time.
And yes the iFad is just an iFad.
I'm still waiting for iTeeth.
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 10:36 AM   #702
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Ugh, I'll reserve judgement, but I *LIKE* how iOS looks versus Windows Phone and especially Android. I don't WANT "flat" even if that's the currently hip for 2 minutes thing, it's less useable, and I like color and textures. The only disadvantage I see is it probably takes more processing power to do, but that's irrelevant as all iOS hardware is perfectly capable of handling the interface well enough, and will only get better.

Oh well, I just hope they don't mess up podcast support or force you to use that horrific "podcasts" program, which is ironically far worse than the built-in podcasts support lol
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 11:22 AM   #703
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I'm not excited about the flat design change. I agree a change is needed, but in functionality more than design. When will io7 be available for download? Will it be a few months after WWDC?
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 11:30 AM   #704
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I'm not excited about the flat design change. I agree a change is needed, but in functionality more than design. When will io7 be available for download? Will it be a few months after WWDC?
If I'm remembering right, the new version ends up launching around the time of the new iPhones, maybe plus or minus a couple of weeks?

So my guess would be somewhere from September to November all currently supported iOS devices would get the update.
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 12:57 PM   #705
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Now I can understand that the world is comprised of many people with many different points of views and also personal preferences but....


Seriously? Why would anyone get excited over a watered down minimal effort tic tact toe design like that?

Talk about completely lack luster and a Epic Vision of failure that will indeed be super imposed on all of us!

WOW ....Jonny Ives you have got to be kidding me with that!

Has anyone heard the old saying that variety is the spice of life? It is said because, quite frankly it is true.

I don't just dislike that design concept, I absolutely think that it's completely hideous!

I do respect everyone's right to their own opinion but, I also think that many people these days just say YES that's great, only to be in agreeance with the masses... ie... the {YES Crowd} that will go for anything that is spoon fed to them whether they like it or not.

How FLAT design has even gotten any kind of approval or traction at all in the Web Design world is just astonishing to say the least. I do a lot of website design and development and personally, once again, talk about completely LACK LUSTER AND LAME!
You must have one of the most care free lives in the world to have so much passion about this topic. Either you are 14 and the toughest thing going on in life is baseball practice or you are 34 and mom's making dinner tonight... PASTA! YAY!
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 01:47 PM   #706
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You must have one of the most care free lives in the world to have so much passion about this topic. Either you are 14 and the toughest thing going on in life is baseball practice or you are 34 and mom's making dinner tonight... PASTA! YAY!
Is there anything more ridiculous than someone attacking someone for caring about something, thus demonstrating that they're passionate about attacking this other person? I mean REALLY. :-/
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 03:07 PM   #707
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Is there anything more ridiculous than someone attacking someone for caring about something, thus demonstrating that they're passionate about attacking this other person? I mean REALLY. :-/
It's ridiculous to see the amount of threads/posts on MR with absolutes on an unknown. That's ridiculous.

But yea, there's more ridiculous things out there than what I did. Our govt, hollywood, gas prices, bullying, cancer, lack of honesty....

See?
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 05:58 PM   #708
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it's true, the drop shadows and gradients on this website are slowing down my computer as we speak
lol!!
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 02:50 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by Kid Red View Post
I have no problems with a toned down, monochromatic greyscale UI. However, I do not want a monochromatic Windows 8 UI.
I don't know what Microsoft has in mind for Windows 8. It is possible that the OS will take on a flatter appearance, but we will have to wait and see about that one.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 02:08 PM   #710
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You can go Android, no?
Sure if I didn't waste a grand on this useless iPad.
Same with the iPhone. I regret buying it all the time. Now that I seen 7 (crap) I may just bite the bullet and switch.
John Ive is a tool. He sounds like a tool in his spew about the new design.
Have fun with that half a$$ attempt to copy android.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 02:12 PM   #711
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Sure if I didn't waste a grand on this useless iPad.
Same with the iPhone. I regret buying it all the time. Now that I seen 7 (crap) I may just bite the bullet and switch.
John Ive is a tool. He sounds like a tool in his spew about the new design.
Have fun with that half a$$ attempt to copy android.
Sorry you feel that way. To me, this has been the best Apple Keynote in a very long time. I cannot wait for iOS 7. For me, all of these design changes are refreshing and I'm extremely excited to see this on my phone this fall.

No more leather stitching! Thank god.

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Old Jun 10, 2013, 02:16 PM   #712
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I guess the design is polarizing. Personally, I think it's nice and a huge improvement over iOS6. Still, I'm not switching from Android until Apple makes a phone with decent sized screen.

I can't wait for OSX 10.9 though!
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 02:51 PM   #713
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I love the "command center" or whatever it's called. Adds more controls than even the iPad has now.

The look? I'm baffled by people who think the old look was bad, and not sure how this'll pan out, but at least it looks better than Android, if probably not iOS 6. Looks kinda Windows Phone-y, which...again looks better than Android, though worse than iOS 6 overall.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 11:04 AM   #714
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I'm happy with the new direction. I think the look had branched too much and needed a revamp. I just hope they spent an equal amount of time working on the more mundane stuff.
I'd like to see finer grained control over the badge/banner notifications. It is a bit annoying when you can't tap on a part of the screen because you just crossed 9pm or 10pm and you are getting deluged with emails from message boards you posted to.
I know it sounds silly for a 45 year old man to say, but I've lost games due to that. I want my levels back!
Seriously though, there should be a setting "don't interrupt this app with notifications". With maybe an exception for "VIP" emails.
And maybe the ability to delete stock apps?
Some of us never use Stocks, Newstand, Passbook etc. I was takling to a co-worker about her iphone and we both laughed about the "last page" phenomenon. You know where you stick all your unused apps on that last page all the way to the right?
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 11:19 AM   #715
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I find it fascinating that John Gruber says iOS7 is filled with "intellectual rigor". Yet Apple still could not separate the app shortcuts from app installation like Microsoft did with Windows Phone 3 years ago. That is real software engineering, not just more fancy 3D graphics.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 11:43 AM   #716
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I find it fascinating that John Gruber says iOS7 is filled with "intellectual rigor". Yet Apple still could not separate the app shortcuts from app installation like Microsoft did with Windows Phone 3 years ago. That is real software engineering, not just more fancy 3D graphics.
Oh you mean like the way the Windows Phone launcher works? Yeah I do think it's the best of the three, even more so with Windows Phone 8.

Interestingly I discovered last night that each mail account has it's own entry as a "program" that can be pinned (or not) on the start screen, so you can either list email on there by account, or just dive into the main program that combines all of them.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 12:35 PM   #717
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Oh you mean like the way the Windows Phone launcher works? Yeah I do think it's the best of the three, even more so with Windows Phone 8.

Interestingly I discovered last night that each mail account has it's own entry as a "program" that can be pinned (or not) on the start screen, so you can either list email on there by account, or just dive into the main program that combines all of them.
Exactly. The entire pinned-content system in Windows Phone shows way more intellectual rigor than anything in iOS. But John Gruber is a slurper.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 01:05 PM   #718
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You were all complaining about skeuomorphism now shut up. this will be as flat as it is possible to be
Okay, all you people who were harping about flat and B&W,

BOY WERE YOU ALL EVER COMPLETELY WRONG!!!

Last edited by wgnoyes; Jun 11, 2013 at 02:27 PM.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 10:00 AM   #719
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I don't like the new design, it feels generic, uninspired, android-ish, windowsphone-ish, HTC-ish, and so on.

What's worse, it's less intuitive. "Slide to unlock" had a purpose. Familiar looking skeumorphic stuff had a purpose. You could literally hand over an iphone to any person on this planet with no instructions about how to use it. Relying on swipes from outside the border of the screen is stupid. How is anybody supposed to know those gestures exist? And so on.

Anyway, after the widespread public bashing about skeumorphism and Forstall-ism, Apple had pretty much no other choice. They couldn't do half and half (half skeumorphism half abstract minimalism). So they went all in with abstract minimalism...and take away most of what made iOS looks like iOS. Or at least the iOS we're used to.

I hope in the coming years they will refine the design a bit, smooth rough edges and make it a bit less generic.

I like the 3D parallax style floating icons though.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 10:03 AM   #720
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I don't like the new design, it feels generic, uninspired, android-ish, windowsphone-ish, HTC-ish, and so on.

What's worse, it's less intuitive. "Slide to unlock" had a purpose. Familiar looking skeumorphic stuff had a purpose. You could literally hand over an iphone to any person on this planet with no instructions about how to use it. Relying on swipes from outside the border of the screen is stupid. How is anybody supposed to know those gestures exist? And so on.

Anyway, after the widespread public bashing about skeumorphism and Forstall-ism, Apple had pretty much no other choice. They couldn't do half and half (half skeumorphism half abstract minimalism). So they went all in with abstract minimalism...and take away most of what made iOS looks like iOS. Or at least the iOS we're used to.

I hope in the coming years they will cut corners and refine the design a bit.

I like the 3D parallax style floating icons though.
Well, to each their own. I think the new design is absolutely brilliant, a breath of fresh air and made me think during the keynote:

"It's about D*MN time."

My only complaints are the icons (especially Safari & Game Center) which I think need a lot of work, but beyond that? Animantions? UI? Multi-tasking? Font and typography?

Love it.

Good bye to the Forstall paradigm, hello Ive paradigm. It's about time.

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Old Jun 13, 2013, 10:26 AM   #721
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What's worse, it's less intuitive. "Slide to unlock" had a purpose. Familiar looking skeumorphic stuff had a purpose.
Yep, sure does. At worst, what's it hurting?

Quote:
You could literally hand over an iphone to any person on this planet with no instructions about how to use it. Relying on swipes from outside the border of the screen is stupid. How is anybody supposed to know those gestures exist? And so on.
I haven't looked into this too deeply. What are you referring to about swipes from outside the border?

I don't have a problem with some controls being more advanced-I mean there's no way around that, and every good OS from Windows to iOS on the iPad makes use of 'em, but are they replacing something obvious with something that's not obvious?

I'll say too, swipe to unlock is REALLY obvious and nice on both iOS through 6 and Windows Phone, and really not obvious on a lot of android devices I've seen, which are inconsistent and don't give obvious visual feedback.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 11:59 AM   #722
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They removed the actual slider, now there's only "Slide to unlock" written in the middle of nowhere.

That's less visual clue.

Minor stuff, sure, but still. Not caring about stuff like this and adding invisible parts of the UI that have to be summoned by swipes (from the top, bottom or left of the screen, for notifications, control center and back respectively) feels a bit like Windows 8 or android vendor skins. Maybe it's an issue, maybe it's not. For all we know lots of people (elders, etc.) don't even know/use the current multitasking bar or current notification center. So maybe until they get rid of the familiar "icon grid" metaphor (the main theme of the OS usability) all of this is not a big deal. Still. Just saying.

Style-wise, minimalism is the new black, then X years from now we'll shift back to skeumorphism or baroque interfaces, shadows, gradients, brushed metal and such, then after X years we'll go back to minimalism, and so on....I'm ok with that. Just be careful not to lose intuitivity in the transitions.

----------

By the way

https://openradar.appspot.com/14109095
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 12:07 PM   #723
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I'm not excited about the flat design change. I agree a change is needed, but in functionality more than design. When will io7 be available for download? Will it be a few months after WWDC?
Have you used it?
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 12:18 PM   #724
Wolfpup
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They removed the actual slider, now there's only "Slide to unlock" written in the middle of nowhere.

That's less visual clue.
Yikes, that sounds like some third party Android interfaces I've seen. TEEEEEEERIBLE stuff. What the heck?

Quote:
Style-wise, minimalism is the new black, then X years from now we'll shift back to skeumorphism or baroque interfaces, shadows, gradients, brushed metal and such, then after X years we'll go back to minimalism, and so on....I'm ok with that. Just be careful not to lose intuitivity in the transitions.
I hate that STYLE is trumping usability. Now I like Windows 8 mostly, but in a lot of ways they've replaced 3D elements and button contrast with a flat look, which is the new exciting design thing. That has NOTHING to do with usability-things were the way they were for a reason. It's entirely being done because some graphic artists or whatever think that's the new hip thing, which pisses me off. And yep, I imagine it'll come back around, and they'll decide something else is the new hip thing.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 02:35 PM   #725
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Have you used it?
No, but now I can't wait to download it in the Fall. Seeing it in use, while watching the keynote online, was impressive. Much better than the leaked still shots.
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