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Old Feb 12, 2015, 04:50 AM   #951
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Originally Posted by sodapop1 View Post
I'm no spiritual advisor but I suggest focusing more on learning about God by reading the bible
Why the bible? There are so many religious text why this one?


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and not fixating on these labels and how others will perceive your relationship with God. And as I mentioned before, your relationship with God should be based on love and it isn't an IQ test.
The problem remains the same, you would have to believe in something like a god before you can have any form of relation with it.
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Old Feb 15, 2015, 05:18 PM   #952
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The Tower of Babel

I just saw the silent movie Metropolis where the Tower of Babel was mentioned, the city has a second Tower of Babel in it. Anyone care to tackle this as far as the reasons why the Lord would do this? It strikes me as just another stab in the dark a weak one at that. Instead of doing these tricky things, why not face the kids in person and lay out the agenda? Can this actually be pushed by the faithful with a straight face?

After the Great Flood, humanity was united, together building a great city even a tower that would go all the way to heaven. The Lord said, "boy these people are really united and can get big things done, but it will lead them away from me so... let's go mess with them" and he took all the people, scattered them around the Earth and gave them separate languages to keep them divided, so they would not get too many big things accomplished and keep him up on his pedestal.

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5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
(Bible Gateway Link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel

https://answersingenesis.org/tower-of-babel/
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Old Feb 16, 2015, 08:27 AM   #953
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Moved this over from the movie thread...

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Originally Posted by pachyderm View Post
Image

i love this one. i think i can remember that star of david image. i have it on dvd so i may go back and watch it.

if you like that you may wanna check this out:
Image

or this:
Image

the thing that stands out to me,other than the stories, is how cool the special effects and sets are! and the scenes in faust when mephisto first appears ... just wow!
Thanks, I'll look and see how accessible they are. Regarding the star, The Star of David (Judism) and the hexigram used in Paganism and the occult, exist, look the same but are not related. My impression in this movie that the star is related to paganism, (link ) as there was other symbology such as "Moloch", the name of an ancient Ammonite (Pagan?) God. (link) Now why was the machine that overloads linked to this symbolism? Possibly trying to equate an unfair system to Paganism*, sacrificing workers for the system, while on the other hand, the woman was surrounded by crosses symbolizing Christianity. The symbols are inserted into the movie, but they are not addressed other than being there. If interested, check out this article: The Occult Symbolism of the Movie Metropolis.


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The hermetic Seal of Salomon visually depicts the concept of “As above, So below” while representing opposites energies mirroring each other to achieve perfect balance. Fritz Lang’s world perfectly recreates this concept.
* Of note, Paganism is a wide spectrum of belief systems. Can't imply they are all bad, good, or in between.
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Old Feb 16, 2015, 09:33 AM   #954
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Very interesting topic (Metropolis I mean )!

Wiki says: "Moloch is the name of a god associated with child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible and with Phoenician and related cultures in north Africa and the Levant." Which makes sense given the context in the movie (workers being sacrificed for capitalism/"high"-(literally) society).

I didn't know about that meaning, so thanks for bringing that up! As a German, I can tell you that within the colloquial language "Moloch" is the name for a kind of bad, chaotic and rotten place - also being 'down in the mud/dirt'. Urban / bigger cities were referrenced often with that, also including/pointing to sexual topics as prostitution, promiscuity and the general "Sittenverfall" (demoralization, decay). Berlin (20s) was a "Moloch". And so on.

Rotwang is an early (first?) mad-scientist / alchemist type, so the pentagram represents the world of geometry/mathematics, logic and science as well as the opposed idea of mythology and religion imo. It's called "Drudenfuss" in Gemany (well not so much anymore I guess) which goes back to Goethe's Faust, a sign to prevent the Devil from entering your house. It's an very old sign and/or symbol (hence the many references) and stands opposed to the rational, modern world of Metropolis - check out the house Rotwang lives in as well - a left over from the old world.

I absolutely agree with Pachy about setdesign, etc being top notch in those gems! Lang studied architecture and his father was an architect himself - it shows.

It's an interesting point that because of Germany (and Austria as well) boycotted movie-imports from overseas at that time, with it's already dominating output, which I believe were private enterprises mostly, created a tiny and isolated situation for an upcoming but still weak format, mostly rejected by the German upperclass. This niche was quite diverse and partly received substantial public funds (mainly UFA I guess) to compete internationally in this "next big thing" that movies were. So sort of propaganda - "we can do it too" - but without the nationalistic influx. So even at that point it was still possible, despite a considerable budget (nowhere near US standards but still) that avantgarde / expressionist ideas heavily influenced some of these movies.

I can't watch (consume ) these type of movies that often as they aren't as easy on the eye as most movies are nowadays - so when I have a little time and a free mind I love to watch them. Only I'd love to be able to make the tables/screens with the story telling go on faster. They take forever - which was a good thing back then because many people were hardly able to read that good/fast, but it gets a bit tireing (sp?) after a while.

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Old Feb 16, 2015, 09:47 AM   #955
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Very interesting topic (Metropolis I mean )!

Wiki says: "Moloch is the name of a god associated with child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible and with Phoenician and related cultures in north Africa and the Levant." Which makes sense given the context in the movie (workers being sacrificed for capitalism/"high"-(literally) society).

I didn't know about that meaning, so thanks for bringing that up! As a German, I can tell you that within the colloquial language "Moloch" is the name for a kind of bad, chaotic and rotten place - also being 'down in the mud/dirt'. Urban / bigger cities were referened often with that, also including/pointing to sexual topics as prostitution, promiscuity and the general "Sittenverfall" (demoralization, decay). Berlin (20s) was a "Moloch". And so on.

Rotwang is an early (first?) mad-scientist / alchemist type, so the pentagram represents the world of geometry/mathematics, logic and science as well as the opposed idea of mythology and religion imo. It's called "Drudenfuss" in Gemany (well not so much anymore I guess) which goes back to Goethe's Faust, a sign to prevent the Devil from entering your house. It's an very old sign and/or symbol (hence the many references) and stands opposed to the rational, modern world of Metropolis - check out the house Rotwang lives in as well - a left over from the old world.

I absolutely agree with Pachy about setdesign, etc being top notch in those gems! Lang studied architecture and his father was an architect himself - it shows.

It's an interesting point that because of Germany (and Austria as well) boycotted movie-imports from overseas at that time, with it's already dominating output, which I believe were private enterprises mostly, created a tiny and isolated situation for an upcoming but still weak format, mostly rejected by the German upperclass. This niche was quite diverse and partly received substantial public funds (mainly UFA I guess) to compete internationally in this "next big thing" that movies were. So sort of propaganda - "we can do it too" - but without the nationalistic influx. So even at that point it was still possible, despite a considerable budget (nowhere near US standards but still) that avantgarde / expressionist ideas heavily influenced some of these movies.

I can't watch (consume ) these type of movies that often as they aren't as easy on the eye as most movies are nowadays - so when I have a little time and a free mind I love to watch them. Only I'd love to be able to make the tables/screens with the story telling go on faster. They take forever - which was a good thing back then because many people were hardly able to read that good/fast, but it gets a bit tireing (sp?) after a while.
Thanks for the informative post! Interesting how a diety's name makes it into common usage with a related but different meaning. Although The Divinchi Code was controversial, I think Dan Brown did a good job of illustrating though his character Robert Landon that symbols are created, used and reused by humans though millennium with widely different intent and meanings, one of the most famouse being the Swastika

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Old Feb 16, 2015, 10:05 AM   #956
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Although The Divinchi Code was controversial, I think Dan Brown did a good job of illustrating though his character Robert Landon that symbols are created, used and reused by humans though millennium with widely different intent and meanings, one of the most famouse being the Swastika
Is it the one with Tom Hanks? Not really interested in Dan Brown tbh, but of course the Swastika may be the most (in-)famous.

I doubt that Lang intended to present Rotwang as the bad jew though. His name may sound jewish (dunno) but is a mix of rot (red) and wang (cheek), two German words, but that's the same with Edelstein, Goldstein etc - names jews were given back then. So it's not impossible either since the 'eternal jew' is/was a reoccurring theme throughout German history. But I'm no expert in these fields so will leave it at that. But a pentagram, runes and these sort of things as well as the general perception of the 'old' Rotwang house point into the alchemist / black magic topos imo: making gold out of metal and finally bringing machines to life (also devil worshipping > e.g. scene with evil Maria dancing/hypnotizing the crowd, black mass and so on). Love the movie!

Maria is made out of gold in my mind btw. - even when it looks greyish..

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Old Mar 27, 2015, 12:51 PM   #957
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Starting A New Faith

How does an individual's faith based idea become established dogma?

Obviously you have to convince a large numbers of people to buy into the premise.

Is evidence required other that the writings of people who came long before you?

No. If you have enough talent, you can pen your own gospel for public acceptance.

What gives your faith more validity than other beliefs?

Working on an answer.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 01:00 PM   #958
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Starting A New Faith

How does an individual's faith based idea become established dogma?

Obviously you have to convince a large numbers of people to buy into the premise.

Is evidence required other that the writings of people who came long before you?

No. If you have enough talent, you can pen your own gospel for public acceptance.

What gives your faith more validity than other beliefs?

Working on an answer.
If you want an answer, look to the Sikhs (16th century) and Baha'i (19th century) for relatively recent examples.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 01:14 PM   #959
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OP *quoted for notification puposes*
Okay, Huntn invited me here while we were discussing matters in another thread. Clearly this has been an ongoing coversation (5 years) that has covered many varying topics related to a central theme... badminton... we're talking about badminton here, right?

With that being said, Huntn, can you tell me specificially what you wanted me to speak to so that I can attempt to be focused in my response? Also, I'm a bit curious as to why you specifically wanted to get my thoughts on things?

I'll try to get to it somewhat quickly, but I do have a busy weekend ahead of me.
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Old Mar 27, 2015, 02:28 PM   #960
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If you want an answer, look to the Sikhs (16th century) and Baha'i (19th century) for relatively recent examples.
Are you referencing the third unanswered question or the overall post? You are going to make me google it?

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Okay, Huntn invited me here while we were discussing matters in another thread. Clearly this has been an ongoing coversation (5 years) that has covered many varying topics related to a central theme... badminton... we're talking about badminton here, right?

With that being said, Huntn, can you tell me specificially what you wanted me to speak to so that I can attempt to be focused in my response? Also, I'm a bit curious as to why you specifically wanted to get my thoughts on things?

I'll try to get to it somewhat quickly, but I do have a busy weekend ahead of me.
Disclaimer, that was just a suggestion for a good religious discussion location in this forum. I had no intent on luring you here to engage for anything specific. Then I started thinking about a good topic discussion which I did post, but I'm still considering how to answer the third question while I'm not scrubbing the floor and then exercising.

The discussion in the other thread about your description of the Trinity and the basis for that belief, got me thinking about the topic I posted here today. Pick a religion, any religion, what gives that belief substance? Since we don't have any evidence for God, (it is faith) we have to think up some intriquing ideas about what could be, along with personal testimonies about "speaking with God", and feeling or sensing the creator. That appears to be good enough to sway the crowd. What more is needed?
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Old Mar 30, 2015, 08:44 AM   #961
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Starting A New Faith

How does an individual's faith based idea become established dogma?

Obviously you have to convince a large numbers of people to buy into the premise.

Is evidence required other that the writings of people who came long before you?

No. If you have enough talent, you can pen your own gospel for public acceptance.

What gives your faith more validity than other beliefs?

Working on an answer.
The Group Answer: numbers. How many people buy into your faith. Ironically that has absolutely no bearing on the truth of the belief. It's mostly just a popularity contest involving human imagination, no different than current fashion trends. The real answer: Only one thing, your personal faith. You could be one in all of humanity and be the only one who guesses it right.

If it was important, God could straighten out this controversy for humans godly fast. However, if it exists, it chooses not too, because I'll assume it's not important. Two conclusions can be drawn- either it does not exist or it's just not important, and if there is a purpose in our lives, it is to learn something on the Earth Simulator. If you want to be religious, this is not about a diety telling us, what and how we should feel. In fact what telling is there? It's us trying to imagine what he's telling us! Really, it's about us developing an intelligence and moral basis on our own, specifically not being good rule followers. This is the major fault of religion as invented by man. God says this, so we'd better comply or burn. Is that any kind of way to develop? I think not, lol.

Otherwise, there is no purpose, and as the Atheists imagine, it's dust to dust. Do you really think that it's God's intent to have us spend our lives trying to figure out he exists? I see no value in this expenditure of effort. Disagreement?

There is no truth other than personal truth, no empirical evidence. Religion relies only on group philosophy or some would describe it as group delusion. Most of the mainstream religions have origins that started millennia ago, when we first achieved the awareness and mental capacity to ponder this subject. I observe that Big Daddy in the sky is a very compelling and common desire for Homo Sapiens. My guess is this emerged in our consciousness as part of a developmental milestone.

Disclaimer- I'm not an Atheist. While I have no evidence for it, I sense something taking place behind the grey curtain of this life. I want there to be a purpose, a continuation of consciousness after physical death, basically a reason for existence in this Universe. Mostly what seperates me from Theists, is that I won't fabricate or buy into an extensive dogma that attempts to explain it all, especially the mind of God. And I place little value in ancient documents based on our superstitious forefathers. Just because it's old, does not give it validity. Does anyone here really think that ancient humans had a better handle on our existence as compared to us, today? If we kill God in our minds, what makes that any more or less valid than imagining him in the first place?
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Old Yesterday, 02:50 PM   #962
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Disclaimer, that was just a suggestion for a good religious discussion location in this forum. I had no intent on luring you here to engage for anything specific. Then I started thinking about a good topic discussion which I did post, but I'm still considering how to answer the third question while I'm not scrubbing the floor and then exercising.
Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood. I'll let this thread get back on track then if you don't have a specific question for me. Thanks.
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Old Yesterday, 04:27 PM   #963
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Gotcha, sorry I misunderstood. I'll let this thread get back on track then if you don't have a specific question for me. Thanks.
If you want to comment on post 961, be my guest, your option, unless you feel like you've all ready addressed it in the past. No pressure, really.
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