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Old Dec 1, 2012, 08:43 PM   #26
MacFoodPoisoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnb2 View Post
Apple much more designs the A6 than any other company using ARM at any scale, and since they were one of the original partners in ARM, I think they get a pass. Wintel created the commodity hardware business (and almost destroyed Apple with it) - Apple would be insane not to take advantage of it now that they can.

Surely you don't believe that creating a product that functions almost entirely via electronics is the same as creating a complex mechanical product? On top of that, do you think that BMW actually designs and manufactures EVERYTHING on its cars? Even the electronics that control the engine, displays, climate control systems, stability control systems? I think you'll find that many components, both mechanical and electronic, are provided by 3rd parties and integrated by BMW engineers (much like Apple).

Apple is able to command a premium price for some of its products because of material quality (the entire 'ultrabook' class is being subsidized by Intel because the Windows OEMs claimed they couldn't match the MacBook Air at a competitive price) and because they make their own OS instead of using an off-the-shelf product like the rest of the industry. Like I said, they're a hardware company that uses software to help create demand and prestige.

You'll always get more options by going with a Windows OEM, and sometimes you'll get a similar config for less money (sometimes not, though - see the MacBook Air) - the question is whether you're willing to put up with the off-the-shelf OS to get exactly the hardware you want? If you are, knock yourself out. If not, please stop whining - the internet is littered with people who have claimed, at some point in the last decade, that "Apple is DOOMED if they don't cater to my exact needs and wishes!" It hasn't actually turned out to be the case.

Apple is obsessively pursuing the idea that a computer can be an appliance - reliable, functional, attractive, and with absolutely no assumption that the user will ever be able to service it (or upgrade it) themselves. They're doing this from the bottom up with the iPad (my wife is absolutely thrilled with her 16GB iPad 3, by the way - she somehow doesn't feel that Apple abused her by offering such paltry storage), and now from the top down with the iMac. Either get used to that, or throw some money at one of the myriad (financially floundering) Windows OEMs and start learning to love Windows 8. Or Linux.
A lot of the components on a bmw car are not made by bmw of course, some electronics, some shared components with other car platforms, etc. but overall the "hardware" component they produce in every car is their own, on the other hand apple with imacs and macbooks (ios devices are a slightly different story due to their cpu being present) just slaps other people's hardware, period in an enclosure. There's nothing insanely great in the engineering of macbooks and imacs, apple's doing what pretty much every other manufacturer is doing, run of the mill I should add, they are just doing it with more expensive aluminum components than most, and that's that. Intel, amd + ati, nvidia, ti, samsung, lg, etc. are doing something that requires exquisite engineering.

Of course it's not just that, it's the software as well, where apple has a decent os (was quite good, could have been great, is currently just decent because the last few years more effort is being put into ios, and hardware is getting so good, the os, doesn't have to be great) in os x and due to the complexity of developing a desktop os, and more importantly in gaining an app market and drivers and compatibilities for it, competitors who also assemble components such as lenovo, sony etc. opt for windows instead of their own solutions. Apple are good at software enginering, not great, but not average either, but no more than that. Mind you I think software engineering is hard enough that very, very few are great at, so being good at, is a huge complement I am paying to them. Having said that their recent tremendous increase to mega corporate multi billion status has NOT been followed by adequate scaling up of their software division to match the heights of their success. I can tell you know what you are talking about, so I won't go into why it's apparent this has not taken place.

I don't think windows is anymore off the shelf than os x, and part of these forums is to whine about apple too. I know people have wrongly or spitefully claimed apple is doomed countless times, I am into apple related ****, and read the forums for more than ten years. I wasn't one of them claiming this at any point in the past ten years, and if I had more money in the bank to play the stocks, I 'd be sipping cocktails at hawai at the moment (though I 'd probably still be posting here ) because I have expected apple to do really well and stomp the competition and become the multi billion beast they are, as far back as 6 years. I really wish I had the money to buy a million or two in apple stock, but I didn't. . My take now is different though. I know they have such clout, so much and so high profile retail presence, so much money in the bank, to buy up anyone with a good idea and incorporate it, so much litigious power, that it's very very hard for them to fail at the moment. But that doesn't mean that the tides won't start slowly turning on them.

I get your appliance spiel, I don't necessarily disagree, but I think you over apply it here. Yeah in general that's what they are getting at. But if apple could make more money with an upgreadable computer we'd get another ideological tale to sugar coat it another way. As for windows (I am not going linux, been there done that, too much of a hassle), 8 is growing very much on me, esp. on a tablet, cleartype looks great on it (until we get retina os x font will be shrunk and rendered mostly like **** I am afraid), the tiles are a very imaginative new paradigm, and they 've started charging very fair prices for office too (fair prices is the last thing I could say for apple though). Last I heard they got to 20,000 apps too in a month or so that they are out.

As soon as someone comes up with a fairly high ppi screen that is laminated to the display (a big deal for me as I dont use my brand new ipad for that very reason) and windows 8 I am going for it. I already have drop box so icloud is pretty much irrelevant (another major fail in terms of cloud storage since they couldn't buy dropbox) and I ll be going for nice android mini tablet too and a lenovo, rugged, industrial, functional (though I am going to be dual booting os x too for a while I guess )... ebay will be a couple of macbooks and imacs richer. I am keeping my white imac, my beloved powerbook g4 12" best notebook they every made, real tactile keyboards, great aspect ratio, best footprint than anything they currently have on the market. How insanely great this computer was, oh boy.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 04:10 AM   #27
Hexley
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Originally Posted by flopticalcube View Post
No. They will have a new socket.

The adhesive is a bummer but its not too bad. I would say for a one or two time upgrade its OK. If your needs are modest, the low-end machine will work just fine for a few years. At that point, new SSD and RAM upgrade (and perhaps an i7-3770K) and the machine will still serve low-end needs for a couple more years.
Oh! Thanks for the heads up. It looks like Ivy Bridge's socket will be replaced with LGA 1150.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 04:25 AM   #28
Hexley
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Your config is similar to mine.

From Apple Inc
2012 27-inch iMac
3.4GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 3.9GHz
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x4GB
1TB Fusion Drive
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680MX 2GB GDDR5
Magic Trackpad
Apple Keyboard with Numeric Keypad (Int'l English) & Userís Guide (English)
Accessory Kit

From 3rd party
32GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 4x8GB (from G.SKILL F3-1600C10D-16GSQ)
4TB WD RE or Black attached through a Newertech Voyager FW800/USB3/eSATA dock or 4TB WD My Book USB 3.

I'm planning to sell all my FW400 and FW800 devices
- external drives (transfer all the data to USB 3 drives)
- memory card readers
- DV cameras

No plans for an external optical disk drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuddha View Post
I agree. I was going to wait a bit before I purchased one and still may.

Maybe OWC has looked into doing Turnkey with the New Imac's and Install Larger SSD [480GB with a fast 1T HDD or 2T] with or without the Fusion part? Not knowing if the IMAC 27" Drive bay will even accept them? Hereís Hoping.

I wish that ifixit would of taken apart the 1T fusion drive to see if the Drive bay is any different. To see if you can upgrade the SSD or should I say OWC. I may still wait until Jan.


Going with:
27" 3.4GHz quad-core Intel core I7 with 8MB L3 cache $1999. + $200.
8GB Ram, Upgrade to 32GB 1600MHz DDR3 from Crucial +$151.98 inclu. Tax
1TB 7200rpm Fusion Drive + $250., or 768GB SSD $1300. with an External Thunderbolt Drive [LaCie 2big Thunderbolt Series 6TB (7200 rpm) Hard Drive Maybe] $669.
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680MX Graphic processor with 2GB of GDDR5 memory $150.

AppleCare Protection Plan $149.

External Samsung SE-506AB Slim Portable Blu-ray Writer [$89.] to replace the Super drive Apple remove.

Still thinking about which Drive configuration to get?? Now after I see what is involved in taking it apart. I may just bit the bullet and get the 768 SSD. =$1300. You only live ones, maybe.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 07:41 AM   #29
zhenya
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As I said in another thread, I fully understand the compromise of making a device like a phone or tablet that is held all the time and portable difficult to service for the tradeoff of being thinner or lighter.

I do not understand extending that to this extreme in a desktop computer, especially when this has real negative effects for the owner. Who really cares how thin their desktop monitor is at the edges if it requires a laptop-class drive to get it, or a screen that can't reasonably be removed?

This feels like a line has been crossed where Apple is choosing to try and force their profits over building the best possible device.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by zhenya View Post
As I said in another thread, I fully understand the compromise of making a device like a phone or tablet that is held all the time and portable difficult to service for the tradeoff of being thinner or lighter.

I do not understand extending that to this extreme in a desktop computer, especially when this has real negative effects for the owner. Who really cares how thin their desktop monitor is at the edges if it requires a laptop-class drive to get it, or a screen that can't reasonably be removed?

This feels like a line has been crossed where Apple is choosing to try and force their profits over building the best possible device.
If nobody buys it they don't profit, right? Who's forcing you to buy any Apple product?
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:11 AM   #31
Yeroon
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Too bad they haven't teared down a higher end 21,5 with Fusion drive (read: 3,5 inch hdd) or 27" version yet. I'm really curious how hard it is to replace the hdd with an SSD.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 08:14 AM   #32
zhenya
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Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post
If nobody buys it they don't profit, right? Who's forcing you to buy any Apple product?
Nobody of course. That doesn't make them immune to criticism in their choices.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeroon View Post
Too bad they haven't teared down a higher end 21,5 with Fusion drive (read: 3,5 inch hdd) or 27" version yet. I'm really curious how hard it is to replace the hdd with an SSD.
None of these have 3.5" drives as far as I'm aware. The SSD for the fusion drive is just an add on chip.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 10:25 AM   #33
Hexley
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Given that the direction is towards smaller devices whether it be giant servers, desktops, notebooks, subnotebooks, tablets, smartphones, etc the iMac is leading the way.

The days of the ATX towers is slowly becoming a fringe to gamers and tinkerers. It does not represent the future bulk of customers who just want something that works 3 years or more then buy a whole new set.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 10:32 AM   #34
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I think Apple switched from magnets to tape because of the dust problem with the older iMacs.

The magnets were nice but didn't seal off the device from outside air, so eventually most macs suffered from dust inside the screen.

Though they could have used a gasket I suppose, and kept the magnets.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 11:26 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Binarymix View Post
I think Apple switched from magnets to tape because of the dust problem with the older iMacs.

The magnets were nice but didn't seal off the device from outside air, so eventually most macs suffered from dust inside the screen.

Though they could have used a gasket I suppose, and kept the magnets.
The dust actually comes in via the vents at the bottom, but they've probably solved that issue by fusing the display to the glass.

As someone guessed on another thread (before the adhesive came to light), magnets might not be the best option when the display glass takes the whole screen with it if it comes off. Even if the magnets are very strong, I don't think they could risk someone popping the screen off (accidentally or intentionally) and ripping the display connectors off the logic board. The adhesive assures them that anybody who pulls it off knows exactly what they're doing and why, and better indemnifies Apple.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 02:09 PM   #36
masp84
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Originally Posted by rnb2 View Post
Lucky for you it's the holiday season - you should be able to find "Righteous Indignation" on sale 2-for-1 somewhere so you can stock up.



This is hilarious - the Mac Pro faithful are crying themselves to sleep worried that they're never going to get an update, and you're convinced that Apple actually wants to force (FORCE!) anybody with more demands than my mom to buy Mac Pros. The thought that any computer with 3TB+ of combined HDD/SSD storage, a quad-core processor, the fastest mobile GPU on the market, expandability to 32GB of RAM, a screen with almost twice as many pixels as an HDTV is anything less than a "professional" is laughable. I'm buying the 21.5" 2.9GHz to use professionally - I must be seriously deluded about its capabilities!

Better yet, you follow that up with the suspicion that Apple may stop selling hardware and just sell the OS with 'limited hardware support', like it's 1996 and Windows has irrevocably 'won' or something. Repeat after me: Apple is a HARDWARE COMPANY. They make their profit on Devices. Their software is there to make you want to buy the devices. Period. Just because the new iMac isn't to your liking doesn't mean they have any intention of not making them any more.
You'll whine in 2-3 years. Let alone if they do a quick refresh next year to new CPU architecture rendering your new machine obsolete. It'd be very Apple like.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 02:24 PM   #37
masp84
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Originally Posted by rnb2 View Post
Apple is obsessively pursuing the idea that a computer can be an appliance - reliable, functional, attractive, and with absolutely no assumption that the user will ever be able to service it (or upgrade it) themselves. They're doing this from the bottom up with the iPad (my wife is absolutely thrilled with her 16GB iPad 3, by the way - she somehow doesn't feel that Apple abused her by offering such paltry storage), and now from the top down with the iMac. Either get used to that, or throw some money at one of the myriad (financially floundering) Windows OEMs and start learning to love Windows 8. Or Linux.
hmmmm, you don't have to go w8. win7 x64 is still a better bet and it's a great OS ABLE to do the same job you do on a Mac, at the end is not bow but the archer what makes the difference, I still use XP for normal-mid use and it still accomplishes. About prices, IMO you're completely wrong, compiling a maxed out new 27" iMac on amazon or newegg doesn't go above 3.5G (and I'm talking about a BEAST including the Display) compared to almost 7G on the 27" top tier from Apple Store. If your buying mac for price you're being screwed, period. If your reason is you need it to work or you just love it then I guess it's ok.

Now you gotta think a little about the economy in both ways: We might enter recession again and how am I contributing to that. Desktops have a product concept, that's why it has demand and an advantage differential. Apple is going the other way because they chose to do so. That's not ethical when you have many brand houses like Avid or Adobe writing apps for OSx

Last edited by masp84; Dec 2, 2012 at 02:33 PM.
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