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Old Jul 25, 2013, 10:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
This again is meta discussion not worthy of the thread.

But I will simply say that I consider the post to be the discussion.

Linked articles IMO are optional reading if one desires more information.

You posted. I responded to your post. We've had this discussion before.
I really don't understand how you expect to hold a meaningful discussion about much of anything here.

Many threads begin with a post summarizing an article that also provides a link to the full article. As MacRumors' rules (regarding reposting) state: "Please don't repost entire articles from other sites. To initiate a discussion about an article, post a link to the article, quote a bit of it if you like, and include your own comments or questions so people know why you think it's worthy of discussion." (emphasis added)
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 10:57 PM   #52
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I really don't understand how you expect to hold a meaningful discussion about much of anything here.
It could start by you responding to the content of my posts.
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Old Jul 25, 2013, 10:58 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
It could start by you responding to the content of my posts.
Your questions would be answered if you would simply take the time to read the article.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 03:35 AM   #54
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Shocked there hasn't been more public outrage and outcry over the whole mess. That's the scary part ... too many people just trying to make a living to pay attention to what's going on out there.
Exactly, but what happens when the dollar loses it value to nearly zero overnight? All of a sudden those same people have a lot of extra time on their hands because there's no point in going to work anymore. A lot of angry people with a lot of extra time on their hands is what the government fears the most; that's the reason for the NSA surveillance program and all those bullets that the DHS has been buying up.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 03:47 AM   #55
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Of course they get to keep their evil ways. It's total crap they do, but its to be expected. Looks like the US wants a backup copy of the internet.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 06:30 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by localoid View Post
Did you actually read the linked article?
I read it and its all political pandering. I was going to provide a detailed response to the six recommendations but what does it matter. People like you see a government conspiracy around every corner and there is no changing that attitude.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 12:38 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by IGregory View Post
I read it and its all political pandering. I was going to provide a detailed response to the six recommendations but what does it matter. People like you see a government conspiracy around every corner and there is no changing that attitude.
It's not a conspiracy when the government admits to doing it.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 02:38 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by IGregory View Post
I read it and its all political pandering.
When elected representatives "pander" to their constituents is that necessarily a bad thing?

According to a recent poll, nearly three-quarters of Americans say the NSA programs are infringing on some Americans’ privacy rights.

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I was going to provide a detailed response to the six recommendations but what does it matter.
Color me disappointed. I'd love to hear your false narratives detailed responses.

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People like you see a government conspiracy around every corner and there is no changing that attitude.
"People like you?" "Conspiracy around every corner?"

Melodramatic much?
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 02:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
It's not a conspiracy when the government admits to doing it.
Alright MacNut you have a nice day.
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Old Jul 26, 2013, 05:18 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
It's not a conspiracy when the government admits to doing it.
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Originally Posted by IGregory View Post
Alright MacNut you have a nice day.
You do know what the word conspiracy means and from whence it derives right?

It's derivation is from the latin con (together) and spiro-spirare (to breath; to have inspiration).

Literally it just means that a group of individuals have a shared goal. Whether they actually do something in conjunction with each other according to plans made in secret is irrelevant. Usually, however, when people have a shared goal, they find a way to work together on it - either explicitly or implicitly.

So when someone says a conspiracy theory it really means that someone has the idea that a group of people have a shared goal - and that's all it means.

Obviously conspiracies are relatively common.

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 10:38 AM   #61
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The focus of this post is the NSA not Snowden:

NBC News: NSA Spying Broke Privacy Rules Thousands of Times

This is what you get when you allow "we'll follow the rules" domestic spying.

Quote:
The National Security Agency broke privacy rules and exceeded its legal authority thousands of times since it was given new powers in 2008, according to top secret documents leaked by Edward Snowden, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

The Post said most of the breaches involved unauthorized surveillance of Americans or foreign intelligence targets in the United States.

The paper said they ranged from “significant violations of law” to typographical errors that led to the unintended interception of U.S. emails and telephone calls.

Staff at the National Security Agency broke privacy rules thousands of times, according to documents leaked by former contractor Edward Snowden.

An NSA audit obtained by The Post from Snowden said there had been 2,776 cases in the year to May 2012 of unauthorized collection, storage, access to or distribution of legally protected communications. Most were unintended, it said.
How does this reflect on Snowden? What he did was illegal, but I regard him as a whistle blower. However he should of handled it in a different manner although I have no idea what that would have been. Fleeing the country are points against him, not for him.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:20 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The focus of this post is the NSA not Snowden:

NBC News: NSA Spying Broke Privacy Rules Thousands of Times

This is what you get when you allow "we'll follow the rules" domestic spying.



How does this reflect on Snowden? What he did was illegal, but I regard him as a whistle blower. However he should of handled it in a different manner although I have no idea what that would have been. Fleeing the country are points against him, not for him.
Lets say Snowden went through the "proper channels", would this have ever seen the light of day?
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:24 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
Lets say Snowden went through the "proper channels", would this have ever seen the light of day?
If a Republican had gotten wind of it? But that is hard to say, they are so in love with "security" over "liberty", but their hatred of the Obama Administration, a solid maybe.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:31 AM   #64
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Regarding the OP

I for one dont see what the big deal is. If someone reads the sext messages Im sending, or the pictures Im taking, or the statuses Im writing. So what? They have a laugh and move on. Privacy for the sake of privacy is a bit overrated in my opinion. If lives are at stake, I wouldnt mind people listening in on my conversations. Then again, Im not a very private person. Just keep an eye on all your bank accounts, and you'll be fine ;D

Side note - Ironic that this is my stance and yet I voted for Ron Paul :P
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:40 AM   #65
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and giving up privacy for some perceived extra security seems a bit overrated to me.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:48 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The focus of this post is the NSA not Snowden:

NBC News: NSA Spying Broke Privacy Rules Thousands of Times

This is what you get when you allow "we'll follow the rules" domestic spying.



How does this reflect on Snowden? What he did was illegal, but I regard him as a whistle blower. However he should of handled it in a different manner although I have no idea what that would have been. Fleeing the country are points against him, not for him.
He couldn't have handled it in a different manner without the message getting snuffed out. That is why the changes that Obama has proposed are laughable. The guy heading up the operation already lied to congress once and then the reports are going to be so watered down that they won't actually have any information in them. I think they are just hoping this will blow over.

Edward Snowden should be considered a hero.

I thank the russians for not giving into the US government's ********.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 01:27 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The focus of this post is the NSA not Snowden:

This is what you get when you allow "we'll follow the rules" domestic spying.
In traditional law enforcement the rules get broken all the time. Some because of stupidity, some because the rules are misinterpreted, some because of total disregard for the rules, some unintended, etc. Anytime you have humans tasked with investigating, or in the NSA instance, gathering intelligence, there is bound to be violations. Its the nature of human existence. There are thousands of laws on the books. To expect all them will never be broken is unreasonable. Most reasonable people realize that every endeavor will not be perfectly executed.

When a violation is discovered it should be dealt with accordingly. You don't abandon the police department when an officer violates a citizen rights nor do you get rid of the surveillance program. You fix the problem.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 01:35 PM   #68
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and giving up privacy for some perceived extra security seems a bit overrated to me.
We are all entitled :]

But isnt the moment someone signs up for any kind of website or uses a non-personal medium of communication a direct will to giving up privacy? I mean mass communication is there, and while "private messaging", lets say like on facebook, is not-visible by other facebook users, they cant expect it to be not visible by the facebook company.

On some level people must know that by using these easier, direct means of communicating, they are compromising the privacy of that information, right?
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 02:40 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by IGregory View Post
In traditional law enforcement the rules get broken all the time. Some because of stupidity, some because the rules are misinterpreted, some because of total disregard for the rules, some unintended, etc. Anytime you have humans tasked with investigating, or in the NSA instance, gathering intelligence, there is bound to be violations. Its the nature of human existence. There are thousands of laws on the books. To expect all them will never be broken is unreasonable. Most reasonable people realize that every endeavor will not be perfectly executed.

When a violation is discovered it should be dealt with accordingly. You don't abandon the police department when an officer violates a citizen rights nor do you get rid of the surveillance program. You fix the problem.
The failure rate is unacceptable. It appears that if (that's a big "if") they were trying, they were not trying hard enough. Something tells me it was business as usual until the whistle got blown.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 04:35 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by sonicrobby View Post
Regarding the OP

I for one dont see what the big deal is. If someone reads the sext messages Im sending, or the pictures Im taking, or the statuses Im writing. So what? They have a laugh and move on. Privacy for the sake of privacy is a bit overrated in my opinion. If lives are at stake, I wouldnt mind people listening in on my conversations. Then again, Im not a very private person. Just keep an eye on all your bank accounts, and you'll be fine ;D

Side note - Ironic that this is my stance and yet I voted for Ron Paul :P
Perhaps more oxymoronic than ironic.

Anyhow, I would encourage you to study geopolitical history a bit before you get so comfortable with authoritarian governments invading the privacy of their citizens. The record is quite poor and will likely change your attitude towards the importance of privacy rights.

>

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGregory View Post
When a violation is discovered it should be dealt with accordingly. You don't abandon the police department when an officer violates a citizen rights nor do you get rid of the surveillance program. You fix the problem.
And what if the problem is the secret centralization and classified use of vast amounts of private data in the hands of an authoritarian government?

The fix is getting rid of the surveillance program.

>

----------

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Originally Posted by sonicrobby View Post
We are all entitled :]

But isnt the moment someone signs up for any kind of website or uses a non-personal medium of communication a direct will to giving up privacy? I mean mass communication is there, and while "private messaging", lets say like on facebook, is not-visible by other facebook users, they cant expect it to be not visible by the facebook company.

On some level people must know that by using these easier, direct means of communicating, they are compromising the privacy of that information, right?
The disclosure of the information to the service provider is part of a voluntary exchange as clearly and overtly stipulated contractually between two parties.

The government is not engaging in a voluntary contract with the people upon which it is spying which includes a contractual exchange of goods and services - that's what makes it wrong. It is just stealing and spying by means for the threat of violence.

Not unusual for a government, but wrong nonetheless.

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 04:44 PM   #71
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I'm late to the party but glad to see that my home state reps voted for the amendment. Well 3 of the 4. Jim Matheson(D) voted against. Given the close victory he had in the past election I think he's likely on his way out now...
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 12:54 AM   #72
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If a Republican had gotten wind of it? But that is hard to say, they are so in love with "security" over "liberty", but their hatred of the Obama Administration, a solid maybe.
They wouldn't have said anything because no matter how much they hate Obama most of them still realize that Obama shares equal responsibility with Bush for these kinds of things so they wouldn't want it to reflect badly on their party as well.

That said, the proper channels for Snowden to have gone through wouldn't have included going to congress as an option, basically he could have blown the whistle to his superiors who already knew about it and would have ignored it and possibly fired him, and anything else he tried would be considered illegal.
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 09:10 AM   #73
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They wouldn't have said anything because no matter how much they hate Obama most of them still realize that Obama shares equal responsibility with Bush for these kinds of things so they wouldn't want it to reflect badly on their party as well.

That said, the proper channels for Snowden to have gone through wouldn't have included going to congress as an option, basically he could have blown the whistle to his superiors who already knew about it and would have ignored it and possibly fired him, and anything else he tried would be considered illegal.
I don't know the exact mechanics, but I believe he could of approached the right person(s) on the proper Congressional oversight committee who I believe have security clearances and without leaking the documents themselves, referenced the documents and told them that the rules were being broken big time. Now would they have all ready known this? I don't know. This is why you'd have to pick the right person, someone who would take action.
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 09:37 AM   #74
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I don't know the exact mechanics, but I believe he could of approached the right person(s) on the proper Congressional oversight committee who I believe have security clearances and without leaking the documents themselves, referenced the documents and told them that the rules were being broken big time. Now would they have all ready known this? I don't know. This is why you'd have to pick the right person, someone who would take action.
The oversight committee was in on it. You've heard their responses. Those with proper security clearances have those clearances precisely because they won't tell us what the government is doing to us.

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Old Aug 19, 2013, 07:01 PM   #75
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Same as it ever was

You know what's crazy about the Prism stuff tho, When I try to talk about to people about it now I get the same response I got from people 20 years ago, who just don't get it. They don't care "it doesn't affect me". Most of those people aren't really into tech, but still.

It's almost like this:

If you are into tech and you understand, then when it comes down to this, you are angry because, they (NSA) should not be as omnipotent.

But if you are not into tech and don't understand. You say to yourself and anyone else, I don't care. (and this is practically 90% of the POP)

What can any of US do...

My only argument now, is that in the past the only record an american could ever really accumulation or build was an arrest record, medical record, or dental records.

Now we have your internet history, browsing "record".

This is so counterintuitive, particularly to virgin minds who should be able to use the internet/web to explore and read, discover, and find things that interest them.

But politically, we now have a TRACK record. That is digitally logged, recorded, searched, and analyzed. Sad for the future of politics and for kids, in general, as they grow up and get to adulthood or around 30 years old and maybe think of politics.

Cause at that point if someone was to try and run for office, even if they have never been to jail, their whole history and past, can be studied and analyzed and maybe used for a smear campaign, or worse.

Like everything else I guess, oh well... "Doesn't Matter", "Doesn't affect me", right?

I don't know how people do it, unless they are lying to me

I mean I know we treat this like blowing our nose. It gets stuffy we breathe in and out till we almost can breathe and then eventually we blow our nose and have a new fresh breathing passage. Until something else in life starts clog up our mind and then blow again.

Laters...
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