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Old Jun 20, 2014, 12:12 PM   #26
FreemanW
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Disagree. They are just as guilty for continuing it along with the patriot act extension , signing the NDAA& letting the NSA stay working
Well at least your not trying to hide the fact that you're moving the goal posts and adding more to the mix.

Sort of exactly like the Republicans negotiating, running backwards as fast as they can while imploring the other side to meet them half way.

My critique was on the Iraq War and that EVERYTHING Cheney et al engaged in was knowing and conscious LIES and FABRICATION.

Limiting the scope to Cheney and the OP, Congress, both parties, made decisions about Iraq based wholly upon the LIES and FABRICATIONS that were spewed out endlessly by the Bush Administration and their media stooges such as Bill Kristol and Judith Miller.
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 12:24 PM   #27
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Well at least your not trying to hide the fact that you're moving the goal posts and adding more to the mix.

Sort of exactly like the Republicans negotiating, running backwards as fast as they can while imploring the other side to meet them half way.

My critique was on the Iraq War and that EVERYTHING Cheney et al engaged in was knowing and conscious LIES and FABRICATION.

Limiting the scope to Cheney and the OP, Congress, both parties, made decisions about Iraq based wholly upon the LIES and FABRICATIONS that were spewed out endlessly by the Bush Administration and their media stooges such as Bill Kristol and Judith Miller.
AS said, they continued with war , therefore supported the lies & fabrication. to jail with them ALL
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 03:07 PM   #28
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I expected the man to do what he said, end the wars, close GITMO, instead the man continued the wars, started firing missiles into Libya and was looking at Syria where he supplied weapons to the enemy.

EXACTLY.
I guess hope over experience took me on this ride because I expected the Obama administration to shut down Guantanamo Bay and draw down the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. I expected this to take time, but we've obviously shifted from something that will eventually get done in Obama's first year to something that we'll be lucky to see in his last year.

We should keep in mind that Syria and Libya were surprises and I can't really fault him for those two moves.

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I think we blame politicians rather than ourselves far too much. We elected them. We are responsible. IMO it's just a little too easy to elect somebody and then stand back and criticise. What have we done since Iraq that prevents this from happening again? The answer is not much, and the politicians won't do squat unless we pressure them.
The fact that Congress has such a low approval rating and a high incumbent rate is quite telling. There are good Reps. and Senators, but I can't imagine that people are really so satisfied with their own Congress critters to keep voting them back term after term.

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The DNC had the House, senate and White House and it didn't get done.

The GOP shouldn't even be a factor
If the DNC could vote as a block (rather than the usual circle firing squad) you would be right, but Blue Dog Dems ran from closing Guantanamo because they were afraid of being called soft on terror an argument articulated and furthered by Republicans and their apparatchiks on Fox News.

The Republicans don't get to escape blame because the Democrats were weak. Instead, they had the same choices and were perfectly able to vote for closure. Of course, Republicans were the cheerleaders for extraordinary renditions and the use of black sites, so if you want to figure out why the Guantanamo issue is so awful, you have to look squarely at those goons.
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 03:07 PM   #29
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AS said, they continued with war , therefore supported the lies & fabrication. to jail with them ALL
Who would be your replacement?
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 03:20 PM   #30
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I think we blame politicians rather than ourselves far too much. We elected them. We are responsible.
Not me, buddy. I voted for the other guy, you know, the loser. And 90% of Americans don't bother voting, so you can't pin the blame on them. Unless you want to blame them for negligence.

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What have we done since Iraq that prevents this from happening again?
I guess I should vote for the incumbent next time around. It can't be a coincidences that the guy I vote for loses every time.
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 03:44 PM   #31
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Who would be your replacement?
Fresh start. New faces that did not support the stupidity
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 03:57 PM   #32
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Fresh start. New faces that did not support the stupidity
Which party?
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 04:01 PM   #33
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Which party?
There's a big difference!?
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 04:15 PM   #34
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Which party?
No party, vote based on the candidate. No more picking the "lesser evil". Based on party
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 09:06 PM   #35
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^ ^ ^

You'll see pigs flying and having their own gates at the local airport before that happens.

The entire political process in the United States has been wrested from the people.

You need look no further than the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United. If you choose to argue the point, you're being selectively obtuse or simply argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

We the People no long vote for representatives, we select Corporate Proxies that look after those who have financed the incredibly expensive campaigns that are requisite for winning office.
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 10:19 PM   #36
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While they share culpability, NO ONE pounded the drums of war with the gusto and pedantry like those I singled out, and a few others I couldn't be bothered scraping from my memory.

Care needs to be exercised with regard to false equivalency and all that.
You raise a rather interesting point, actually. We were lied to - both American citizens and members of the government - and we lost an awful lot of life and money as a result. Why wasn't there a hearing about the faulty intelligence? I mean, if we can have multiple rounds over Benghazi, surely we deserve at least one round for why we went into Iraq?
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 10:40 PM   #37
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You raise a rather interesting point, actually. We were lied to - both American citizens and members of the government - and we lost an awful lot of life and money as a result. Why wasn't there a hearing about the faulty intelligence? I mean, if we can have multiple rounds over Benghazi, surely we deserve at least one round for why we went into Iraq?
Were you not paying attention? Bush awarded medals to the guys who screwed the country, saying that their actions "made America safer". And Condi, the National Security Advisor who totally dropped the ball on the 9/11 thing? She got a promotion to Secretary of State.

You can give the Republicans points for chutzpah, but my god, anyone who thinks giving them another chance at national buggery is a good idea probably could use a bit of therapy. I suggest high doses of Chlorpromazine.
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Old Jun 20, 2014, 11:58 PM   #38
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We the People no long vote for representatives, we select Corporate Proxies that look after those who have financed the incredibly expensive campaigns that are requisite for winning office.
But...Hope...Change...Bush bad, Obama Good...
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 12:43 AM   #39
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But...Hope...Change...Bush bad, Obama Good...
How's that working out for ya?
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 12:46 AM   #40
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How's that working out for ya?
Working out the same for every. This coming election the low information voters will once Again elect the "lesser evil" , because he is not the "other" guy from that "other" party
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 01:02 AM   #41
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No party, vote based on the candidate. No more picking the "lesser evil". Based on party
Until things substantially change in this country you are dreaming. There are no independent politicians left, they all are vetted by the primary process.
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 03:22 AM   #42
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^ ^ ^

You'll see pigs flying and having their own gates at the local airport before that happens.

The entire political process in the United States has been wrested from the people.

You need look no further than the SCOTUS ruling on Citizens United. If you choose to argue the point, you're being selectively obtuse or simply argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

We the People no long vote for representatives, we select Corporate Proxies that look after those who have financed the incredibly expensive campaigns that are requisite for winning office.
When was it ever different?
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 09:38 AM   #43
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Not me, buddy. I voted for the other guy, you know, the loser. And 90% of Americans don't bother voting, so you can't pin the blame on them.



Unless you want to blame them for negligence.
Yes, I do. If half the energy spent on cynicism about politics were spent on getting the vote out and educating the voters, we wouldn't be in this mess. Just sayin'.
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 05:47 PM   #44
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When was it ever different?
If you go back far enough, the corporate entity was extremely limited in scope as well as being far more restricted and controlled.

The corporate charter long ago was nothing resembling what we have today.

Corporation today (more often than not) means maniacal psychopathic marauding serial killer, destroyer of environment, aggressive proponent of unsustainability, and destroyer of consciousness, all cultivated by lawyers and courts.

In other words, a good neighbor and fellow citizen, having everyone's best interests at heart, always looking out for the disadvantaged and ready to provide a helping hand.

With the corporate paradigm running government, what could possibly go wrong?

Cheney walking out of Haliburton and into the Office of Vice President can provide a not-so-subtle insight and answer to that question.

Cheney provides an excellent exemplar into what I referred to several posts ago, a corporate proxy, acting on behalf of corporate interests to the necessary exclusion of ANY benefit or interest to We The People and in fact facilitating catastrophic damage to our country.
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 07:13 PM   #45
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Yes, I do. If half the energy spent on cynicism about politics were spent on getting the vote out and educating the voters, we wouldn't be in this mess. Just sayin'.
Makes no difference how much you try & educate voters. People will still pick. A republican or a democrat even if the saw them mutilating a child on stage
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 07:16 PM   #46
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Makes no difference how much you try & educate voters. People will still pick. A republican or a democrat even if the saw them mutilating a child on stage
Democrats are probably less likely to do that in public.
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 07:39 PM   #47
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If you go back far enough, the corporate entity was extremely limited in scope as well as being far more restricted and controlled.
Which time period are you talking about?
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Old Jun 21, 2014, 09:56 PM   #48
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Which time period are you talking about?
The rather disorganized and 'lawless' period of transition in the Colonies, from British East India Company through the 'Boston Tea Party' and the beginnings of the end in the mid-1800's when the U.S. Federal government began passing legislation that began the slippery slope to corporate personhood, all the benefits and privileges of being an individual with not one shred of the limits responsibility and accountability impose.
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