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Old Aug 8, 2013, 11:28 PM   #76
samiwas
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
You need more than simply brandishing a weapon that could be used as a lethal weapon.
Well, apparently not any more. You just need to give appearances that you might use a stick in a violent way.

I would assume these are the same people who support the dude in Texas who went out and killed the prostitute that took his money, because, I mean, it was dark and all.
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Old Aug 8, 2013, 11:48 PM   #77
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Following this argument to its logical conclusion suggests that everyone is a carrying a "lethal weapon" and thus, every single shooting is justified.
The flaw in your logic is that simply carrying a lethal weapon (gun, hands, whatever) does not grant another the legality to use lethal force against them. There's the whole part where they use that lethal weapon against someone not engaged in an unlawful activity and in a way that a reasonable person would fear for their life.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 12:02 AM   #78
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The flaw in your logic is that simply carrying a lethal weapon (gun, hands, whatever) does not grant another the legality to use lethal force against them. There's the whole part where they use that lethal weapon against someone not engaged in an unlawful activity and in a way that a reasonable person would fear for their life.
This very SYG case seems to conflict with that statement. Choir director had a wood club/plank in his hand, shooter pulls his gun and shoots him. Shooter claims SYG, which grants him that legality. Shooter gets off.

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Old Aug 9, 2013, 08:09 AM   #79
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You can not be that obtuse. Look at posts here on MR that puts rape/sexual assault blame on the victim. That's not even counting the press, police and judges who do it, every day.
I can't say I've encountered that, sorry. Even in cases where a victim could have used better judgment, it's still not the victim's fault it happened, and the perpetrator still doesn't get a free pass. So no, I'm not being obtuse, I'm just being rational.

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If driving near someone at what I considered too fast of a speed was reason enough to fear for my life enough to use deadly force against them, then I could thin out my neighborhood pretty quickly.
If all that happened was someone drove past you at a speed you consider too fast and a distance you consider too close, and they kept on their way without stopping, I could see your point. But if the driver missed you, stopped his vehicle, stepped out, and approached you whilst swinging a stick, I'm pretty confident you'd feel differently about him.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 08:25 AM   #80
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Yeah, this law needs no changing.
We have violence problems all over the world. Forgive me if I can't really get all upset over Florida and it's gun control problems.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 09:39 AM   #81
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We have violence problems all over the world. Forgive me if I can't really get all upset over Florida and it's gun control problems.
I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings in the Oprah wasn't allowed to look at a $35,000 handbag thread?
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:16 AM   #82
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I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings in the Oprah wasn't allowed to look at a $35,000 handbag thread?
No, just showing the futility of the comment.

Sorta like, "Why would you say this like it adds to the conversation and did you think how you might react if someone had that attitude with a topic that's closer to home."
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:24 AM   #83
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No, just showing the futility of the comment.

Sorta like, "Why would you say this like it adds to the conversation and did you think how you might react if someone had that attitude with a topic that's closer to home."

I think you do harm to your conversation by using what I think is a ridiculous anecdote about Oprah Winfrey and a handbag that costs more than many make in a year. If you wanted to start a conversation about racism, I think you could have found hundreds of anecdotes that are closer to home.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:24 AM   #84
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We have violence problems all over the world. Forgive me if I can't really get all upset over Florida and it's gun control problems.
Considering that nothing posted on this sub-forum makes one bit of difference to anyone in the world, why is discussing Florid's silly law and it's tragic consequences any less valid than discussing the world's violence problems?
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:49 AM   #85
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I think you do harm to your conversation by using what I think is a ridiculous anecdote about Oprah Winfrey and a handbag that costs more than many make in a year. If you wanted to start a conversation about racism, I think you could have found hundreds of anecdotes that are closer to home.
That's perfectly fine for you to think so.

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Considering that nothing posted on this sub-forum makes one bit of difference to anyone in the world, why is discussing Florid's silly law and it's tragic consequences any less valid than discussing the world's violence problems?
That's the point. I would've never made the claim one way or another. I would never take someone's discussion the be anything less than one I'd want to have myself. If I did, then I wouldn't even bother commenting.

Personally, I agree with rdowns, the law needs to be changed, and I agree with everything in favor of changing it.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:53 AM   #86
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The flaw in your logic is that simply carrying a lethal weapon (gun, hands, whatever) does not grant another the legality to use lethal force against them. There's the whole part where they use that lethal weapon against someone not engaged in an unlawful activity and in a way that a reasonable person would fear for their life.
Right. There's more to the legal argument than carrying a potentially lethal weapon. Your argument has been built on the idea that the shooter was afraid for his life because the victim was carrying a stick. There has to be more than simply possession of a lethal weapon.

So, either everyone is armed (literally and figuratively) with a weapon and thus everyone is automatically a threat, or there needs to additional justification for a stand your ground claim.

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We have violence problems all over the world. Forgive me if I can't really get all upset over Florida and it's gun control problems.
This is a red herring. Using this argument, we can't talk about any instance of violence so long as Syria remains wracked with civil war.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 10:58 AM   #87
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This is a red herring. Using this argument, we can't talk about any instance of violence so long as Syria remains wracked with civil war.
I agree, I was using that statement to show another poster how sad of a statement it was in the other posts above.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 12:24 PM   #88
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Don't see the issue with this.

If you don't want to end up dead, don't assault people with a stick.
What is so hard to comprehend about that????

Its pathetic that progressives want a society full of victims.
We need MORE people standing up to the criminal element.
Criminals are no longer scared of society or police as society is taught to play victim.
It is time for society to stand up!

That being said, he should be charged with illegal position of a firearm.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 12:40 PM   #89
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Right. There's more to the legal argument than carrying a potentially lethal weapon. Your argument has been built on the idea that the shooter was afraid for his life because the victim was carrying a stick.
Never said that. That's for sure.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 01:45 PM   #90
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Don't see the issue with this.

If you don't want to end up dead, don't assault people with a stick.
What is so hard to comprehend about that????
Well, for a start, he did not assault anybody.


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Its pathetic that progressives want a society full of victims.
We need MORE people standing up to the criminal element.
Yeah, those violent gangs of criminal choir leaders need taking down.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 02:41 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ThisIsNotMe View Post
Criminals are no longer scared of society or police as society is taught to play victim.
What is this claim based on?

When were criminals scared of society or police, and what changed so that criminals "no longer" became scared?

Do you have data to back any of those assertions up?
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 03:46 PM   #92
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Its pathetic that progressives want a society full of victims.
Yes, this is exactly it. All of us who aren't conservative actually want more criminals to take advantage of other people. We want the people to back down and be taken advantage of. We need more victims!

Somehow, this is seen as the same thing as condemning shooting first and asking questions later. Saying that a guy who waves a stick at someone doesn't deserve to die is wayyyyy different from saying that people should just back down and get run over by criminals. That you can't see that is frightening.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 04:20 PM   #93
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Somehow, this is seen as the same thing as condemning shooting first and asking questions later. Saying that a guy who waves a stick at someone doesn't deserve to die is wayyyyy different from saying that people should just back down and get run over by criminals. That you can't see that is frightening.
Why do you continue to misstate the facts so flagrantly to make it sound as though Jacobs was just waving a stick around, like he was doing a rain dance and someone killed him for it? When you build up these strawmen it's hard not to conclude you'd rather the victim in this case got run over or beaten.

What appears to have happened, as corroborated by two witnesses in addition to the three teens directly targeted by Jacobs:

- Jacobs and the teens were yelling at each other, Jacob from his car and the teens walking on the street.
- Jacobs stopped his car and tried to get the teens to come to him. When they didn't, he drove his car towards the teens, causing one of them to run fearing he was trying to run them over.
- Jacobs exited his car with the club, yelling expletives, "I'm going to beat your ***" etc, motioned that he was going to strike one of the teens, and Pierson shot him.
- The police found crack in a couple places in Jacob's car.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2013080...LES/130809792?
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 05:09 PM   #94
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Why do you continue to misstate the facts so flagrantly to make it sound as though Jacobs was just waving a stick around, like he was doing a rain dance and someone killed him for it? When you build up these strawmen it's hard not to conclude you'd rather the victim in this case got run over or beaten.

What appears to have happened, as corroborated by two witnesses in addition to the three teens directly targeted by Jacobs:

- Jacobs and the teens were yelling at each other, Jacob from his car and the teens walking on the street.
- Jacobs stopped his car and tried to get the teens to come to him. When they didn't, he drove his car towards the teens, causing one of them to run fearing he was trying to run them over.
- Jacobs exited his car with the club, yelling expletives, "I'm going to beat your ***" etc, motioned that he was going to strike one of the teens, and Pierson shot him.
- The police found crack in a couple places in Jacob's car.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2013080...LES/130809792?
Yeah, okay...the guy was a little more threatening with his stick than the first article insinuated.

And I never stated that I thought that the guy was just dancing around with his stick. He may have very well been swinging it in a threatening manner. I still don't think lethal force should be used in response to a stick until that stick is actually used. And even then, I think a shot to the knee or the guy's junk would be sufficient, not a shot to the head.

Still, I am no fan of this, and still don't support the shooter in any way, shape, or form. Not at all. I still don't buy into the "you have no duty to get away and instead just kill the guy" mentality. I don't agree that this constituted great fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. Sorry, I know you don't feel that way, but that's the way I see it.

As I've said before, I predict a LOT more of these cases to start appearing. As more people start to learn that even the most basic of implied threats with an easy out can be met instead with lethal response and no consequence, we will start seeing more of these stories.
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 05:25 PM   #95
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Never said that. That's for sure.
Which is why I said that you could take the argument to its logical conclusion.

If a person possessing a "weapon" is threatening; and, if a threatening person may be killed under a self-defense claim; and, if hands can be considered weapons; then anyone can be killed at any time.

This is your argument distilled.

Which, is why I question the idea that someone merely carrying a stick is threatening and the idea that hands can be considered weapons.

A self-defense claim requires, even under SYG, more than simply possession of a weapon—we assume that most citizens aren't ninjas or super-villians and thus cannot kill people with blades of grass, playing cards and peanuts.

Instead, the shooter must have "reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another..."
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 05:54 PM   #96
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I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings in the Oprah wasn't allowed to look at a $35,000 handbag thread?
Really? Wow are you 12?!? rdowns, grow up!
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Old Aug 9, 2013, 06:14 PM   #97
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Which is why I said that you could take the argument to its logical conclusion.

If a person possessing a "weapon" is threatening; and, if a threatening person may be killed under a self-defense claim; and, if hands can be considered weapons; then anyone can be killed at any time.

This is your argument distilled.
No, your straw man is making an unwarranted leap from possession to extreme fear that I never argued. A person merely possessing a legal item that can be used as a weapon would not cause a reasonable person to fear they are in immediate life threatening danger.

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A self-defense claim requires, even under SYG, more than simply possession of a weapon—we assume that most citizens aren't ninjas or super-villians and thus cannot kill people with blades of grass, playing cards and peanuts.

Instead, the shooter must have "reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another..."
I agree. In fact, I haven't noted anyone argue otherwise.
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Old Aug 10, 2013, 07:20 AM   #98
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Really? Wow are you 12?!? rdowns, grow up!

You hurt my feelings.
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Old Aug 10, 2013, 12:16 PM   #99
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You hurt my feelings.
I am sorry
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 11:14 AM   #100
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When I was the shooter's age and still in highschool, someone started a confrontation with me. I knew the guy carried a butterfly knife so I just walked away from the situation and it didn't escalate. Walking away from those kinds of situations or simply not talking back if someone random is yelling something on the street or from a car has proved to work 100% of the time for me.

Tyrone didn't make the same smart decision. Him and his friends yelled back and the conflict escalated. It shouldn't be a requirement to run away in a situation like this but using lethal force against a threat of force in a situation where your movement is not restricted is ridiculous.
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