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Old Sep 22, 2013, 06:21 PM   #51
skaertus
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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
But the iPad won't stay the same, either. The new A7 chip in iPhone 5S is, as was pointed out during the keynote, a "desktop class" processor. I think all the hardware is in place now for iPad to act as a convertible tablet / laptop. Apple just has to write the software for it. And if Apple lives up to its past standards, it will mostly just work from day one, not be a half-baked mess like Windows 8.

I do think convergent devices are the future, but Microsoft's mistake is pushing devices to market before the hardware technology is quite there. They spent a decade pushing tablet computers while they were still too heavy, too limited and too expensive, and was blindsided when Apple introduced the iPhone / iPad. They are doing the same with their push for Win8 hybrid devices. And personally, I think history is going to repeat itself, and Apple will be the first to make a hybrid device that just works, leaving Microsoft's attempts in the dust. But we'll see what happens!
I really don't know about that. The A7 chip indeed seems to be very fast, but I don't know if it is desktop-class. The great problem is the software, not the hardware. While iOS 7 was a major overhaul in terms of design, functionality was not very much improved. Multi-tasking is still not multi-tasking. There is no file system. No mouse support. And there are really no decent office apps for it. Even Apple's iWork, which is the best mobile office suite to date, is quite limited compared to Microsoft Office (and I'm skeptical about is evolution, since Apple hasn't upgraded the Mac version in four years).

Apple's approach has been to keep the devices separate. Apple will not make a toaster-refrigerator, as Tim Cook once mentioned. Every device has its purpose, its "soul". And this philosophy is not compatible with the release of a tablet-laptop, a convertible device.

And, if Apple manages to make the iPad a convertible device, what will happen to Macs? Apple will either converge iPads and Macs, or the Mac will disappear.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 08:21 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by skaertus View Post
I really don't know about that. The A7 chip indeed seems to be very fast, but I don't know if it is desktop-class. The great problem is the software, not the hardware. While iOS 7 was a major overhaul in terms of design, functionality was not very much improved. Multi-tasking is still not multi-tasking. There is no file system. No mouse support. And there are really no decent office apps for it. Even Apple's iWork, which is the best mobile office suite to date, is quite limited compared to Microsoft Office (and I'm skeptical about is evolution, since Apple hasn't upgraded the Mac version in four years).

Apple's approach has been to keep the devices separate. Apple will not make a toaster-refrigerator, as Tim Cook once mentioned. Every device has its purpose, its "soul". And this philosophy is not compatible with the release of a tablet-laptop, a convertible device.

And, if Apple manages to make the iPad a convertible device, what will happen to Macs? Apple will either converge iPads and Macs, or the Mac will disappear.
We seem to be agreed that it's the software that needs work, but we have different perceptions of how big a task that will be. iOS does have a file system, and there's been a file explorer app for jailbroken iOS devices almost since there was a jailbreak. Apps like GoodReader, FileBrowser, Dropbox, etc also prove it's not that difficult to implement file management in iOS. If Apple puts their mind to it, they could whip up a file management UI for iOS in a jiffy.

Bluetooth mouse control has also been implemented with jailbreak, and I'm sure the new bluetooth game control API can be quickly adapted to bring mouse control to iOS.

The lack of true multitasking is again a deliberate choice, to conserve battery. Again, jailbreakers have consistently managed to implement stable and robust multitasking -- once Apple decides that battery technology is good enough to support multitasking, it's not like it's a huge, monumental task to write code to implement it.

iWork not being as feature complete as Office, you've got a point, but I think once Apple makes it clear that they are ready to merge iOS and OS X into a single platform, third party developers will step up to fill the need, if Microsoft doesn't wake up and finally port Office.

As for Cook's claims that Apple won't make a refrigator-toaster, I think he'll keep claiming that right up until Apple announces their hybrid computing device, just like Jobs said nobody will watch videos on iPods, or nobody reads books anymore, up until he announced the video iPod and the iBook store.

And yes, when the hybrid device is perfected, then the Mac will go away. Or maybe iOS will become Macs. What does it matter? I've always thought that Mac and iOS share the same soul underneath, and that the division into touch and desktop is just a surface difference in interface.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 08:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
We seem to be agreed that it's the software that needs work, but we have different perceptions of how big a task that will be. iOS does have a file system, and there's been a file explorer app for jailbroken iOS devices almost since there was a jailbreak. Apps like GoodReader, FileBrowser, Dropbox, etc also prove it's not that difficult to implement file management in iOS. If Apple puts their mind to it, they could whip up a file management UI for iOS in a jiffy.

Bluetooth mouse control has also been implemented with jailbreak, and I'm sure the new bluetooth game control API can be quickly adapted to bring mouse control to iOS.

The lack of true multitasking is again a deliberate choice, to conserve battery. Again, jailbreakers have consistently managed to implement stable and robust multitasking -- once Apple decides that battery technology is good enough to support multitasking, it's not like it's a huge, monumental task to write code to implement it.

iWork not being as feature complete as Office, you've got a point, but I think once Apple makes it clear that they are ready to merge iOS and OS X into a single platform, third party developers will step up to fill the need, if Microsoft doesn't wake up and finally port Office.

As for Cook's claims that Apple won't make a refrigator-toaster, I think he'll keep claiming that right up until Apple announces their hybrid computing device, just like Jobs said nobody will watch videos on iPods, or nobody reads books anymore, up until he announced the video iPod and the iBook store.

And yes, when the hybrid device is perfected, then the Mac will go away. Or maybe iOS will become Macs. What does it matter? I've always thought that Mac and iOS share the same soul underneath, and that the division into touch and desktop is just a surface difference in interface.
Well, perhaps you are right.

But the thing is, I don't see much development in the iPad. The iPad has been out for 3 years now, and it could be so much more than it currently is. The 64-bit A7 processor is capable of handling a lot of tasks, but iOS 7 won't let it.

Apple could certainly add mouse support to the iPad. It managed to add gamepad support, so mouse support won't be difficult. The way apps are designed would have to be changed to accomodate the mouse, but still... not impossible.

As for Office, Microsoft still has the edge here. And Microsoft Office rules in the enterprise world. As companies move like dinosaurs, they will take several years to switch to another office suite, and Microsoft Office will hardly lose its market. Small companies that make office suites aren't able to compete in this environment. And even Google and Apple will struggle to, although they can be worthy contenders. Let's see what happens.

Now, it's up to Apple to decide what to do with the iPad.

I've seen some videos of tablets running on the upcoming Intel Bay Trail platform, which is set to be released in the following weeks. High-resolution tablets running the full Windows 8 are just around the corner, and they will be thin, light and have good battery life. Some prototypes weigh as much as an iPad, but they have the ability to run every Windows app. The iPad is beautiful, but far less useful. Perhaps next year Apple adopts a different approach to it.
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Old Sep 23, 2013, 04:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by skaertus View Post
I've seen some videos of tablets running on the upcoming Intel Bay Trail platform, which is set to be released in the following weeks. High-resolution tablets running the full Windows 8 are just around the corner, and they will be thin, light and have good battery life. Some prototypes weigh as much as an iPad, but they have the ability to run every Windows app. The iPad is beautiful, but far less useful. Perhaps next year Apple adopts a different approach to it.
I've been thinking about why I feel okay with iPad not being as useful as those Win8 devices, and I think for now, iPad is my leisure device, and my MacAir running Win7 is my work device, and that suits my needs just fine.

For me, the full size iPad is the perfect size for relaxed reading, which is what I use it for (and some casual gaming) about 90% of the time. But when I do any work, I want at least a 13-inch screen like my MacAir. Unless someone invents a screen that can stretch and shrink at will, the fact is I will always need two devices, one for leisure reading, and one for doing serious writing. So that is why the current hybrid devices don't interest me. The ones that are small enough to be a good tablet are too small for me to do actual work (and this includes the Surface), and the ones that are big enough to do serious work are so big they offer no advantage over a regular laptop.

Perhaps Apple is betting that there are more people who feel like me than there are people who want an all-in-one device?

On the other hand, I would love a device the size of an iPad or smaller that turns into a full-powered computer when used in conjuction with a big monitor, keyboard and mouse. I leave a set of monitor-keyboard-mouse at home and one set at the office, and just carry my tablet or phone, and when I sit at my desk at either location, I have a fully functioning computer set up exactly the way I like, with all my files and programs. I hope we do get that some day. And I hope such an system will be both beautiful and useful.
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Old Sep 23, 2013, 04:54 PM   #55
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I use my ipad when I need to. Email, web browsing netflix etc. Am i underutilizing it at times? Perhaps. But it's what I use it for and I never feel obligated to use it for anything more than my needs. Use it for what you want not what you think you should.
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Old Sep 23, 2013, 05:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by jav6454 View Post
This all just means you didn't need an iPad to start off with.
Certainly not that much of one.

This is a user who would be fine with a 16GB, perhaps even a 16GB Mini. And there is no shame in that.

I have a much more intensives use set as I travel a lot for work and download movies for the plane or when I'm in the hotel and can't sleep. I also use it for reading scripts, recording work data like camera settings, taking photos of costumes and set decorations and so on. so if anything i need more storage and even more power. if the next iPad comes out with the same processors as the iPhone 5S I'm totally buying a 128GB. I'll give my 32GB iPad 4 to my little brother to pay games and such on.

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Originally Posted by ElectronGuru View Post

The thing to keep in mind about the App Store is that it's the worst organized library since before the dewey decimal system was invented.
that can be said about all the iTunes stores.

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Originally Posted by Rhyalus View Post
It is going to be a very long time before the iPad's have enough computing power AND effective interface mechanisms (mouse, keyboard, etc.) to compete with true laptops.
For some users. Which is why they get laptops

But for others, a laptop is overkill. They don't really need that much power. So an iPad is perfect. It's this decades WebTV really

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Originally Posted by darngooddesign View Post
I think Apple is working on a hybrid device currently but are waiting until they have solved issues they see as compromises.
I disagree. I don't think that Apple is working on any kind of hybrid. I think they may have tested it sure, but they could have already made it by now and haven't. After all it would just be a home grown ModBook
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Old Sep 23, 2013, 05:33 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by skaertus View Post
I think you're not entirely wrong. Sometimes I feel the same way.

The iPad could be so much more.

I mean, it's great for surfing the Internet. I can also read Kindle books on it, and it's good for this purpose. And for reading PDFs and Word files, or reading anything else.

But it's limited. There are plenty of apps developed for it, but what can those apps really do? Facebook? Gmail? We can all access the content of these apps via a web browser.

In fact, the reality is that most apps became irrelevant, either on a tablet or a computer. In my computer, the apps I really use are web browsers, media players, games, messaging and productivity apps.

The iPad comes with a web browser (Safari) and a media player (iTunes), and, while, I can replace them with other apps (such as Google Chrome, for instance), they will still perform the same function.

Messaging? Well, there's Messages and FaceTime, and you can install Skype or something else. There are some games for the iPad as well.

And then there are the productivity apps. In my view, productivity apps are what make computers really useful. Microsoft Office is probably the most used software in the world (apart from operating systems), and there's a reason for that. It's the standard software for office productivity. Everybody who wants to be productive, with no compromises, should take a look at Microsoft Office. There are alternatives, of course: WordPerfect Office, LibreOffice, OpenOffice, iWork, and so on. But the Microsoft suite is the standard, and I'm not getting into which one is better than the other.

Office productivity apps are not the only ones around, though. There are other productivity apps. You may use them for desktop publishing, for creating and editing movies, making web pages, editing photos, and so many other things. It will all depend on what you need. While nearly everybody needs office productivity, not everybody needs to edit photos or create videos.

That's where the iPad fails, in my view. Office productivity is poor on the iPad, and that makes it feel like a toy. There's no Microsoft Office for iPad, even though Microsoft Office is the standard and everyone seems to use it. There are alternatives, but those alternatives seem somewhat sub-par. iWork for iPad, for instance, looks great. But have you tried to use Pages for iPad for two hours? The experience is completely different from using Pages on a Mac. It is difficult to perform complex tasks such adding footnotes. Typing is good with a keyboard, but there's no mouse, and a finger is not half as precise as a mouse pointer. You can't use apps side-by-side. You can't add fonts. There's no file system. Word processing is poor and limited on the iPad, even though word processing is perhaps far more used than any other productivity tool. Keynote provides a better experience, but Numbers is poor.

The bottom line is that the iPad will not be taken seriously unless it can provide for a good productivity experience. And that must encompass office productivity, and not only those creative productivity apps aimed at designers, photographers and movie directors. If there's no general good old fashioned office productivity on the iPad, then the iPad will remain as a luxury toy.

For that, Apple will have to make the iPad more computer-like: allow two simultaneous apps to run side-by-side, provide a better and more precise pointing device, allow more freedom for add-ons and browsing content, and so on. Look at the Microsoft Surface Pro, for instance. You may complain on the battery life, on the screen size and ratio, on the size and weight, on the price, and on several other factors. But you can't say it's useless. It runs Windows and Microsoft Office, and every other productivity app ever released for Windows. A premium office productivity experience makes all the difference.
What you are looking for is available. It's called "iMac" or "MacBook"
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Old Sep 23, 2013, 10:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Night Spring View Post
I've been thinking about why I feel okay with iPad not being as useful as those Win8 devices, and I think for now, iPad is my leisure device, and my MacAir running Win7 is my work device, and that suits my needs just fine.

For me, the full size iPad is the perfect size for relaxed reading, which is what I use it for (and some casual gaming) about 90% of the time. But when I do any work, I want at least a 13-inch screen like my MacAir. Unless someone invents a screen that can stretch and shrink at will, the fact is I will always need two devices, one for leisure reading, and one for doing serious writing. So that is why the current hybrid devices don't interest me. The ones that are small enough to be a good tablet are too small for me to do actual work (and this includes the Surface), and the ones that are big enough to do serious work are so big they offer no advantage over a regular laptop.

Perhaps Apple is betting that there are more people who feel like me than there are people who want an all-in-one device?

On the other hand, I would love a device the size of an iPad or smaller that turns into a full-powered computer when used in conjuction with a big monitor, keyboard and mouse. I leave a set of monitor-keyboard-mouse at home and one set at the office, and just carry my tablet or phone, and when I sit at my desk at either location, I have a fully functioning computer set up exactly the way I like, with all my files and programs. I hope we do get that some day. And I hope such an system will be both beautiful and useful.
Have you seen the new Surface Pro? It has a docking station that allows it to connect to two external monitors. I felt that the first Surface was something of a beta product, but Surface Pro 2 is looking really fine. It still needs some improvements, but perhaps it will become the way to go in a year or so.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wepiii View Post
What you are looking for is available. It's called "iMac" or "MacBook"
Yes and no.

I do have a MacBook Pro, but I still think the iPad has some advantages over it. Sometimes I just want to take my iPad and write something on it, like a real computer. When I travel, I would like to carry my iPad with me; but I have to take my Mac instead, because the iPad won't allow me to work if I need to.

The iPad, fine as it is, is an incomplete device for me. It does a lot of things, but it doesn't do everything. A Mac, or a PC, on the other hand, does everything.

There are some new tablets that are able to run the full version of Windows and perform a lot of tasks. These tablets are becoming thinner and lighter with the release of Haswell. And they also get more battery life. Intel is promising that Broadwell, to be released next year, will have 30% more battery life than Haswell. Tablets will become even thinner and lighter then and, yet, they will be powerful like a full-featured laptop.

Apple has the hardware to keep up with that. The A7 chip carries a 64-bit processor, and has plenty of power to run a full-featured operating system. The question is: will the iPad remain the beautiful and limited device it is, or will it evolve into a real computer?
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