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Old Jun 7, 2013, 08:36 PM   #51
Moyank24
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
As a dense person myself, you need to please explain how you came to that conclusion...since it's going to put a lot of docs I know out of business.

Also...no need to shout!
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Well then, LISTEN.
To be fair, there have been legislators who have been trying to make medical decisions for women for years.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 08:36 PM   #52
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Well then, LISTEN.
He probably couldn't hear above all the SHOUTING.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 08:40 PM   #53
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The Child was born with a birth defect, the adult smoked 10 packs a day. Who do you give the lung too?
I'm not sure their criteria is that simple. Money may have some unfortunate influence as you mentioned. These things become available at certain times, and they must have a greater method of determination when prioritizing a waiting list. Some of the articles around the internet suggested that adult organs may have a higher failure rate in children, but they weren't well referenced. As to the child being near death, others also die on the waiting list. This may not be any different. All we really know is that it received greater publicity. If supply and (possibly) qualified doctor constraints were not a problem, you would not have many waiting list deaths. The 10 pack/day smoker in your example seems like quite an outlier, but I'm not sure whether that is one of the factors that comes out when weighting such a decision.

Off topic from my last paragraph, did anyone read the comments on the article page? It jumped right into things about government death panels and other garbage when wait lists for organ recipients are not a recent thing.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 08:41 PM   #54
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He probably couldn't hear above all the SHOUTING.
Also I'm not too bright...I need to have rational arguments explained to me...assuming there are rational arguments to explain.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 08:42 PM   #55
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...assuming there are rational arguments to explain.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 09:07 PM   #56
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Also I'm not too bright...I need to have rational arguments explained to me...assuming there are rational arguments to explain.
I was tempted to respond to him with a flurry of casing errors and random punctuation. I don't think the concept would have registered.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 09:13 PM   #57
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Took the words right out of my mouth.
Did you volunteer as a word-transplant donor?
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 05:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
To be fair, there have been legislators who have been trying to make medical decisions for women for years.
You wouldn't be talking about the slaughtering of unborn babies would you ???
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 06:28 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Man, people here are DENSE. GET USED TO NOT HAVING A DOCTOR MAKE YOUR MEDICAL DECISIONS. GET USED TO WASHINGTON OFFICIALS AND JUDGES. WOW.
Ooooh, all caps, must be important.

I have news for you, your insurance company already makes your medical decisions for you.
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Last edited by rdowns; Jun 8, 2013 at 09:17 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 09:11 AM   #60
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What j said. Didn't you read? It's a federal judge who made the decision, not Sebelius.

I think that this is very scary. Actually, I think anyone who public ally complains about transplants in the US should mandatorily be signed up for the organ donor list, along their parents, sibs, children and grandchildren. The problem isn't really the courts or the judges but the lack of donors.
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I don't believe that 'nearness' to death is a considering factor.
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And then there were 2.
So, now all judges, in addition to all the legal understanding they require, as well as demonstrating a judicial temperament, now also need to be experts in medical ethics.

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Originally Posted by MacNut View Post
Who should we be giving new lungs too, children with birth defects or chronic smokers over 50?
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Originally Posted by Ugg View Post
The criteria are well established and have been for years. Rather than asking rhetorical questions, why don't you first, go down and register as an organ donor and then write to the appropriate organization with your concerns.
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Exactly.

Someone gets the short end of the stick one way or another.
To the extent that I have glanced at the ethics of organ transplants, I don't always understand/accept all of it it either. But then, I'm not an expert in semiconductor physics either, yet I still use computers every day. Sometimes when a subject gets complicated, you have to go with the experts. I do know a lot of people have put a lot of work into producing the procedures that hospitals use. I would lean towards going with the experts, rather than forcing judges to make these decisions.

The ethical experts may not always agree with general public sentiment. In particular, at least in the U.S., many people tend to assume that children always should get priority over adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sk1wbw View Post
Man, people here are DENSE. GET USED TO NOT HAVING A DOCTOR MAKE YOUR MEDICAL DECISIONS. GET USED TO WASHINGTON OFFICIALS AND JUDGES. WOW.

Who was it who brought the legal system into this?



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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Ooooh, app caps, must be important.

I have news for you, your insurance company already makes your medical decisions for you.
Excluding Fox News, everyone else knows the real death panels are at insurance companies.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 04:10 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
This is something I was wondering about.

The girl has Cystic Fibrosis. According to the NIH, CF is an inherited disease.

This leads me to believe that given new lungs, she'll still have CF, and will damage those new lungs over time.

If that assumption is wrong, then someone please correct it.
I don't know anything about the girl in question, but from first hand experience I can tell you that if a kid that young has issues, simply getting a new lung probably isn't going to make them better.

Maybe it makes me jaded, and I'm a horrible person, I dunno. But given our limited resources, I would rather see one fully healthy person and one dead person over two people who are suffering immensely.

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You wouldn't be talking about the slaughtering of unborn babies would you ???
Probably the mass-genocide of millions of could-be babies that happens on a daily basis. Seriously, we need better anti-masturbation laws to prevent such atrocities!
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 04:37 PM   #62
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Seriously, we need better anti-masturbation laws to prevent such atrocities!
You can have my penis when you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

Ewww.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 04:50 PM   #63
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You can have my penis when you can pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

Ewww.

Pro-tip: It's much better when you warm your fingers up first.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 07:06 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
This is something I was wondering about.

The girl has Cystic Fibrosis. According to the NIH, CF is an inherited disease.

This leads me to believe that given new lungs, she'll still have CF, and will damage those new lungs over time.

If that assumption is wrong, then someone please correct it.
You're correct. As a first year med student, we actually had to write about CF [as it's the second most common autosomal recessive disease in the UK], and the actual problem is not lungs but to do with chloride channels, something a transplant would not correct. Link here from Wikipedia summarises the illness well.

On a side note, she does seem rather young for developing these complications. I understand there is nationwide testing for this in the US, but would she be eligible for insurance? It seems that for many the cost of CF (and similar illnesses would be prohibitively expensive as it often involves regular hospital admissions with antibiotics and long term medications.
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Old Jun 11, 2013, 08:55 AM   #65
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I can sympathize with any parent who wants to see their child spared from suffering.

However, I'm troubled by the special treatment being afforded to this girl.

It seems to me as if publicity trumped medical considerations.

Thoughts?
When you have too many consumers and not enough doners (sp?), the only fair way to run a list like that is to setup up logical rules and then follow them. No special treatment, if that is what this family received.
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Old Jun 12, 2013, 12:31 PM   #66
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The girl in question is undergoing the transplant surgery now.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/0...nsplant-today/
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Old Jun 12, 2013, 01:55 PM   #67
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Wait:

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According to Fran, Sarah's gift also comes on the same day as his and his wife's 40th wedding anniversary.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/0...#ixzz2W1ttIajT
So 10-year old Sarah was born on their 30th wedding anniversary? How old are these parents?

Edit, looking at their picture, it doesn't seem possible that they've been married for 40 years:

http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/sarah-m...et-murnaghan-0
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Old Jun 12, 2013, 02:45 PM   #68
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So, this kid with a lesser chance of survival just killed an adult who had a better chance of survival! Yippie!
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Old Jun 12, 2013, 03:19 PM   #69
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Wait:



So 10-year old Sarah was born on their 30th wedding anniversary? How old are these parents?

Edit, looking at their picture, it doesn't seem possible that they've been married for 40 years:

http://bigstory.ap.org/photo/sarah-m...et-murnaghan-0
The foxnews.com article was apparently corrected to:
According to Fran, Sarah's gift also comes on the same day as his and his wife's 14th wedding anniversary.
And I don't see anything about Sarah being born on any wedding anniversary. "Sarah's gift" seems to mean the donated lung(s), i.e. the gift by the donor to Sarah.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 07:31 AM   #70
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My mistake about born on the anniversary. You're right. 14 years makes complete sense.

Well, hopefully she survives the rough first post-transplant year and then beats the odds and lives more than 5 more years.
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Old Jun 13, 2013, 09:12 PM   #71
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You're correct. As a first year med student, we actually had to write about CF [as it's the second most common autosomal recessive disease in the UK], and the actual problem is not lungs but to do with chloride channels, something a transplant would not correct. Link here from Wikipedia summarises the illness well.

On a side note, she does seem rather young for developing these complications. I understand there is nationwide testing for this in the US, but would she be eligible for insurance? It seems that for many the cost of CF (and similar illnesses would be prohibitively expensive as it often involves regular hospital admissions with antibiotics and long term medications.
The lungs would theoretically be healthy, because coming from a healthy donor, it would not have that defect.

But then there's the pancreas and other organs that would still limit her lifespan. I think even with a lung transplant, CF patients only survive until their thirties.

Regarding the second case going before the judge, I think it's absolutely wrong transplant rules are being circumvented. I actually didn't read the articles (only the snippets posted here), but if parents are just using the courts to jump ahead of the line, some serious medical jurisprudence is being violated. This simply cannot happen.

It angers and saddens me to see the second case involving parents who actually had a previous CF child. SMH. They should know better and seek genetic counseling.
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Old Jun 14, 2013, 09:04 AM   #72
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Does anyone know who would have received the "full" set of lungs had the court not gotten involved and forced the doctors to cut the lungs down so they would be small enough to fit, and then implant them in this girl?

Shouldn't Fox News and the others who were pushing this story go find out who died, or is probably going to die, because the rules were circumvented?
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Old Jun 14, 2013, 06:10 PM   #73
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...

Shouldn't Fox News and the others who were pushing this story go find out who died, or is probably going to die, because the rules were circumvented?
It takes a lot of people to keep the Outrage Machine going, no one has time to actually report.

I'm also not sure if it's that easy to identify the next donor. I'm sure privacy laws come into effect.
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Old Jun 18, 2013, 03:58 AM   #74
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I'm not sure. Their policy is that children under 12 do not get the same priority as those above the age of 12.

I haven't managed to read up on this policy yet, so the reasons for it is just guessing at the moment; maybe the failure rate in young children is higher or something along these lines?
It's not Priority so much as a completely separate list, IIRC.
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I don't believe that 'nearness' to death is a considering factor.
It is. Although how much it counts I don't know - but all else being equal, the person closer to death usually gets the organ, IIRC.

The girl in this article - I recieved a change.org email about her - said that at the time (jun 6) her life expectancy was 2 weeks, tops.
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Does anyone know who would have received the "full" set of lungs had the court not gotten involved and forced the doctors to cut the lungs down so they would be small enough to fit, and then implant them in this girl?

Shouldn't Fox News and the others who were pushing this story go find out who died, or is probably going to die, because the rules were circumvented?
Probably just "lung" - one can survive just fine off a single lung.
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