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Old Dec 21, 2012, 05:59 AM   #101
Merkava_4
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There's only two ways to prevent gun killings:

1. Have everybody armed so that no one is at a disadvantage.

2. Have no guns in the country anywhere.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 06:14 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Merkava_4 View Post
There's only two ways to prevent gun killings:

1. Have everybody armed so that no one is at a disadvantage.

2. Have no guns in the country anywhere.
Surely you're just pointing out the two existing situations there.

Number 1 is the USA (the only country in the developed modern world to allow everyone+dog to own guns)

Number 2 is the likes of the UK, where even the police dont carry a gun.

If we base it purely on that, Number 2 is the better option, as statistically the UK has a tiny fraction of the homicide rate that the US has (per 100,000 people - so not based on population to skew results).
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:34 AM   #103
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This was posted in another forum by an Englishman with the username: MWF

"We have to appreciate that the USA is still a relatively young country, one that's still coming out of the pioneering stage, one that's had to fight a number of wars while still trying to establish itself. Also, in terms of geography, the sheer size and terrain is remarkably adverse.

The problem isn't the second amendment, that's a logical right, shared by many countries that have been in a similar position and created with the best intentions. The problem is with a subset of gun cultures that have sadly grown in its wake - mainly criminal gun culture.

But that's freedom for you, it empowers every member of society to do something incredibly constructive or woefully destructive.

The real problem is that when something awful happens, such as a mass shooting, everybody loses their heads and starts pointing the finger of blame in irrelevant directions, security, gun laws, movies, computer games, music etc. Theres so much noise created focusing on what could be catalysts that tackling the root cause is drowned out.

Gun control is certainly a topic worth debating, but applying sweeping generalisations and naive assumptions just means the debate is doomed from the start.

If Obama wants to make a real difference to gun culture he needs to take the guns away from the criminals, not the people defending their families from them."

Seems like good summation of the situation as it stands.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:43 AM   #104
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If Obama wants to make a real difference to gun culture he needs to take the guns away from the criminals, not the people defending their families from them."
I guess what you're suggesting is that we're supposed to know who the criminals will be even before criminal acts have taken place ... and to confiscate the weapons from them prior to their committing a criminal act.

That's a neat trick.

How do you propose we manage that?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:07 AM   #105
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I guess what you're suggesting is that we're supposed to know who the criminals will be even before criminal acts have taken place ... and to confiscate the weapons from them prior to their committing a criminal act.

That's a neat trick.

How do you propose we manage that?
I propose we don't even try to manage it.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:51 AM   #106
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I propose we don't even try to manage it.
Why bother?

Those 20 first-graders were just the price of freedom.

Right?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 03:51 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I guess what you're suggesting is that we're supposed to know who the criminals will be even before criminal acts have taken place ... and to confiscate the weapons from them prior to their committing a criminal act.

That's a neat trick.

How do you propose we manage that?
Until Minority Report tech is available I'd suggest a good first step would be analyzing how criminals typically acquire firearms (we've done that) and putting in place laws to prevent it (we've done that) and give regulatory bodies the money and man power to properly enforce said laws (still waiting for that to happen).

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Why bother?

Those 20 first-graders were just the price of freedom.

Right?
Way to go for the low hanging fruit...

It's really irritating how no one seems to care about the other 99.9% of gun crime that happens. No, you really can't predict or prevent crazy but it is within our power to address problems that lead to the majority of gun crime out there but why would we want to do that when we can fixate over a high profile sliver of the greater problem and use it as a political weapon against people we disagree with?
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 05:04 PM   #108
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Way to go for the low hanging fruit...
Sorry, I didn't realize I wasn't supposed to respond to his post.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:47 PM   #109
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Surely you're just pointing out the two existing situations there.
No I believe it really is that simple. Either have qualified armed guards at the elementary schools, or go around and gather up everybody's weapons out of their houses. Make sure you bring in a backhoe to dig up their yards too because you know they're gonna be burying their guns in their yards.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 07:57 PM   #110
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No I believe it really is that simple. Either have qualified armed guards at the elementary schools, or go around and gather up everybody's weapons out of their houses. Make sure you bring in a backhoe to dig up their yards too because you know they're gonna be burying their guns in their yards.

I always thought putting them in your walls was a good place. Easy to access with a sledge hammer, and easy to repair.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 08:02 PM   #111
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I always thought putting them in your walls was a good place. Easy to access with a sledge hammer, and easy to repair.
Weapons in the wall, ammo in the yard.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:41 PM   #112
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I saw Piers Morgan interviewed on Kudlow/CNBC this evening. I wasn't too familiar with him... have never watched his show.

What an a**hole!
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:46 PM   #113
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I saw Piers Morgan interviewed on Kudlow/CNBC this evening. I wasn't too familiar with him... have never watched his show.

What an a**hole!
This may be the only thing that everyone in PRSI will agree on.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 09:59 PM   #114
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This may be the only thing that everyone in PRSI will agree on.
It's always important to find common ground.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 10:02 PM   #115
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This may be the only thing that everyone in PRSI will agree on.
I just wish there was video of Jeremy Clarkson punching him.
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Old Dec 21, 2012, 10:08 PM   #116
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Exactly and this is what needs to be prevented. Anyone who thinks the current gun laws are working in America are ignoring the facts.
How well do you feel you understand American gun laws or shooting culture? I'm not saying that to sound like a jerk, but because I know of UK laws on weapons, but I really can't say how that impacts society, the circumstances involved, or culture relating to it. The general view on firearms that Europeans and Americans have seem to differ greatly.

The current gun laws in America are not being enforced. That is, while the tip of the iceberg, significant. And it is a fact that is commonly ignored. The other would be the variation in laws by state leading to mass ambiguity. I was an instructor and part of my instruction included the discussion of laws and I constantly had to reference tons of different documents to explain how they differ in state and locality. This leads to the issue of interstate trafficking as well, which is a major issue for some states and non-issues for others.




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Piers Morgan is an insufferable twit. So is the other talking head . This video is an example of what not to do when trying to have a meaningful discussion.

Or their bare hands. But that does not adequately counter the argument that gun control can reduce gun crime, and that certain types of gun crime (mass shootings being the primary example) are clearly more devastating than any form of knife crime.

We have to take a holistic view of crime and not focus on one kind, but you're deflecting all the same.
Agreed. We can't sit back and justify what we have all seen, but there has to be consideration for the protection of rights as well. The amount of people who die each year is appalling and it isn't okay. We need a new organization that sits in the middle. One that advocates investigating and implementing measures but also advocates the right for law abiding citizens to own firearms. And I truly believe we can take a progressive stance in reducing gun violence and accidents without undermining core rights...but with the current pro and anti forces in the US, it's going to be an all-or-nothing which sets the stage for failure.

edit: and the views expressed in this forum by gun rights advocates shows that gun owners want change to the violence as well and are willing to at least investigate methodologies to accomplishing this.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 11:52 AM   #117
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Did Piers also mention that there is a camera on every street corner in the UK. Does that make him feel safer as well?
There isn't on my street, nor any street close to me.
It is mainly central London that has the cameras.
We use them to catch criminals.

I'm not a criminal so I have no issue with them being there.

And NO- we will not take back Piers Morgan.
You can have Jeremy Kyle as well if you like.
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