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Old Nov 28, 2012, 02:14 AM   #101
hulugu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
First of all. Stealth technology is not overrated. 2nd, Read and learn how the F-117 was shot down and you will find out it wasn't invisible in the sky when detected by enemy radar due to open bomb bay doors.
Why is stealth technology overrated? Because you can lose your fancy aircraft to second-rate radar set because the bay doors are open.

I'm not saying stealth technology isn't useful, rather that it's overrated by military planners who tend to see stealth and forget that there are limitations in creating such designs: cost, flight profiles, and limitations in the ordinance that your stealth fighter can carry.

Moreover, the F-22 was outmatched by older, cheaper EuroFighters in mock engagements this year. While the aircraft's technology is incredible (ignoring serious problems in the oxygen system and problems with the "stealth glue" of course), allowing it to engage enemy aircraft beyond LOS, in a dogfight, it's not the best fighter around.

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...3rd, America to cause WWIII? Lol
Sure, because the United States has never started a fight.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 10:43 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
In the world, America is #1 Russia is #2 and China is #3

Source

http://www.globalfirepower.com

We have more money dumped into our Defense to keeps us number 1. It comes at a price like I said before. I don’t set the prices. As other Countries militaries advance, ours does too. Scary to see two communist counties ranked number 2 & 3 in the world.
Source

1. United States, $711b
2. China, $143b
3. Russia, $71b

So, the US spends about five times number 2 China, and ten times number 3 Russia. I don't think they are catching up any time soon.

We also spend significant more as a percentage of GDP than most of the top 15.

I don't see China coming to get us, as a large part of their economy is based on ours. Destroy us, and they lose. Russia, eh.

Quote:
As far as the $400 billion in defense cuts, here you go.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...defense-cuts/1
So to support your assertion that the military has already taken over $400 billion in cuts, you provide a source from about 10 months ago stating that the new strategy is to make $487 billion in cuts over the next decade. So what, $48 billion a year maybe? Less than a 7% cut per year average based on current numbers. Oh noooes!!

Let's face it...you're just infatuated with the military and are scared of somebody coming to get you.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:36 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
In the world, America is #1 Russia is #2 and China is #3

We have more money dumped into our Defense to keeps us number 1. It comes at a price like I said before. I donít set the prices. As other Countries militaries advance, ours does too. Scary to see two communist counties ranked number 2 & 3 in the world.
Russia is not a communist country. Apparently you are living in Romney's "Yesterdayland" just like he is.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 05:13 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
My understanding is the F22 was more maneuverable than the YF23, but otherwise the YF23 was a better machine. I tend to think that stealth is overrated, depending on the sensors and angles, even very good stealth technology can be defeated. We lost an F-117 to Serbian air defense, so it's clear that it's not a catch-all technology.
What seems to be the issue with stealth technology is that a plane with a radar signature the size of a golf ball today can avoid virtually anything today, but with the speed of technology, it will probably be seen by everything in a decade or so. To my understanding, Russia makes surface to air missiles now that can track the F35 and possibly even the F22. At least as it stands now, the Eurofighter Typhoon is arguably a better jet than the F22, and likely a better close-range dogfighter according to most who have flown both. And to my understanding, the AIM-120 medium range air-to-air missiles the US have don't exactly have a great track record and the air-to-ground attack capabilities of the F22 and F35 are far behind that of the Eurofighter, ages behind the Strike Eagle, and monuments less than the B2 Spirit which is the 'go-to' for strategic plinking. So I'm honestly not sure where the F35 will wind up or even if it was a good undertaking at a time when traditional fighter jets may be less important than strategic bombers.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Why is stealth technology overrated? Because you can lose your fancy aircraft to second-rate radar set because the bay doors are open.

I'm not saying stealth technology isn't useful, rather that it's overrated by military planners who tend to see stealth and forget that there are limitations in creating such designs: cost, flight profiles, and limitations in the ordinance that your stealth fighter can carry.

Moreover, the F-22 was outmatched by older, cheaper EuroFighters in mock engagements this year. While the aircraft's technology is incredible (ignoring serious problems in the oxygen system and problems with the "stealth glue" of course), allowing it to engage enemy aircraft beyond LOS, in a dogfight, it's not the best fighter around.
IIRC the F-22's level of situational awareness allows it to light up targets from quite a distance beyond the traditional site (but the usefulness of this depends on the medium range missile), but when it came into close contact with the Eurofighters they were able to knock out the F-22s rather easily. Also IIRC, the Eurofighter is getting an infrared upgrade designed specifically to defeat stealth aircraft.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:20 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
What seems to be the issue with stealth technology is that a plane with a radar signature the size of a golf ball today can avoid virtually anything today, but with the speed of technology, it will probably be seen by everything in a decade or so. To my understanding, Russia makes surface to air missiles now that can track the F35 and possibly even the F22. At least as it stands now, the Eurofighter Typhoon is arguably a better jet than the F22, and likely a better close-range dogfighter according to most who have flown both. And to my understanding, the AIM-120 medium range air-to-air missiles the US have don't exactly have a great track record and the air-to-ground attack capabilities of the F22 and F35 are far behind that of the Eurofighter, ages behind the Strike Eagle, and monuments less than the B2 Spirit which is the 'go-to' for strategic plinking. So I'm honestly not sure where the F35 will wind up or even if it was a good undertaking at a time when traditional fighter jets may be less important than strategic bombers.

----------



IIRC the F-22's level of situational awareness allows it to light up targets from quite a distance beyond the traditional site (but the usefulness of this depends on the medium range missile), but when it came into close contact with the Eurofighters they were able to knock out the F-22s rather easily. Also IIRC, the Eurofighter is getting an infrared upgrade designed specifically to defeat stealth aircraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
What seems to be the issue with stealth technology is that a plane with a radar signature the size of a golf ball today can avoid virtually anything today, but with the speed of technology, it will probably be seen by everything in a decade or so. To my understanding, Russia makes surface to air missiles now that can track the F35 and possibly even the F22. At least as it stands now, the Eurofighter Typhoon is arguably a better jet than the F22, and likely a better close-range dogfighter according to most who have flown both. And to my understanding, the AIM-120 medium range air-to-air missiles the US have don't exactly have a great track record and the air-to-ground attack capabilities of the F22 and F35 are far behind that of the Eurofighter, ages behind the Strike Eagle, and monuments less than the B2 Spirit which is the 'go-to' for strategic plinking. So I'm honestly not sure where the F35 will wind up or even if it was a good undertaking at a time when traditional fighter jets may be less important than strategic bombers.
Exactly, the Swedes were playing around with radar systems to detect stealthy cruise missiles, using a redeployment of aperture synthetic radars. and it's my understanding that the Chinese have invested in using high-frequency radar systems to track stealth aircraft.

So, as a marquee feature stealth has diminishing returns.

The worrying aspect is that the F-22 and F-35 programs have countermanded the evolution of other programs, so the Air Force is sacking the A-10, for example, for the F-35. But, we don't know how well the F-35 will perform in CAS and there really isn't a forthcoming program to fill in should the F-35 be cancelled.
In many ways, the F-22 program looks less like the F-15 and more like the B-1.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 12:19 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
Russia is not a communist country. Apparently you are living in Romney's "Yesterdayland" just like he is.
Sorry, Russia isnít a communist country ďAny moreĒ But Obamaís buddy Putin is someone I do not trust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Why is stealth technology overrated? Because you can lose your fancy aircraft to second-rate radar set because the bay doors are open.
I'm not saying stealth technology isn't useful, rather that it's overrated by military planners who tend to see stealth and forget that there are limitations in creating such designs: cost, flight profiles, and limitations in the ordinance that your stealth fighter can carry.
Moreover, the F-22 was outmatched by older, cheaper EuroFighters in mock engagements this year. While the aircraft's technology is incredible (ignoring serious problems in the oxygen system and problems with the "stealth glue" of course), allowing it to engage enemy aircraft beyond LOS, in a dogfight, it's not the best fighter around.
Overrated by military planners? Where are you getting your resources from? We have only one stealth fighter Jet that got shot down. Just one. Think about how many successful missions our F-117ís, F-22ís and B2ís Bombers have done. Stealth is by far one of the best technology our US military has. Itís safe for our pilots and for our foot soldiers. As far as the F-22 vs. Typhoon goes, The ATF/F-22 was NOT designed to be a "dog fighter". Its primary mission was BVR; kill before they know you are there. The Typhoon is an amazing jet, but if you put the 2 together, The F-22 is still superior. In todayís style of war, a dogfight would be hard to come by anyways. May I ask what Chinese, Russian, Iranian or Korean Fighter could compete with the F-22?... Simple, NONE!
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:35 PM   #107
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US economic growth rate revised up to 2.7%

So, it turns out that the corrected quarterly figures actually show higher economic growth. The figures announced before the election were low. Tea partiers who want to see the President fail will find a small amount of encouragement in the third paragraph:

Quote:
The US economy grew at an annualised rate of 2.7% in the third quarter of the year, revised data has suggested.

The figure is significantly higher than the 2% initial estimate that the Commerce Department released just before the presidential election.

Much of the growth was due to companies rebuilding their inventories, and is not expected to be sustained.

The first estimate itself had beaten analysts' expectations, and fuelled the suspicions of some Republicans.

The growth rate for the second quarter was confirmed at 1.3%.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20544108


In the meantime, this is the corrected chart:




Luckily, there is still the fiscal cliff looming.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:03 AM   #108
NickZac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnpy!$4g3cwk View Post
So, it turns out that the corrected quarterly figures actually show higher economic growth. The figures announced before the election were low. Tea partiers who want to see the President fail will find a small amount of encouragement in the third paragraph:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20544108


In the meantime, this is the corrected chart:

Image


Luckily, there is still the fiscal cliff looming.
I would call that more cyclical than growth




The above image not only shows the cycles that the economy goes in, but also that cutting taxes on the private upper class has a more complex (i.e.: distant) relationship with economic growth than once thought (keep in mind that is not looking at corporate tax).
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:59 AM   #109
hulugu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla Ice View Post
...Overrated by military planners? Where are you getting your resources from? We have only one stealth fighter Jet that got shot down. Just one.
We've also only lost one F-14 Tomcat in combat. Since the post-Vietnam War era, we've lost 30 aircraft to enemy fire, the lion's share of that during the Gulf War.

Quote:
...Think about how many successful missions our F-117ís, F-22ís and B2ís Bombers have done.
The F-22 has yet to see combat. Moreover, when I say overrated, I'm not saying useless.

The ability for the B-2 Spirit to fly long-range stealthy bombing missions is important, but in many ways the B-2 is less useful than either the B-52 or the B-1.

Quote:
...As far as the F-22 vs. Typhoon goes, The ATF/F-22 was NOT designed to be a "dog fighter". Its primary mission was BVR; kill before they know you are there. The Typhoon is an amazing jet, but if you put the 2 together, The F-22 is still superior. In todayís style of war, a dogfight would be hard to come by anyways. May I ask what Chinese, Russian, Iranian or Korean Fighter could compete with the F-22?... Simple, NONE!
That's what they said about the F-4 Phantom too.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 01:17 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
The F-22 has yet to see combat. Moreover, when I say overrated, I'm not saying useless.

The ability for the B-2 Spirit to fly long-range stealthy bombing missions is important, but in many ways the B-2 is less useful than either the B-52 or the B-1.

That's what they said about the F-4 Phantom too.
As of right now, the F-22 cannot observe its operational ceiling, has never seen combat, is still suffocating pilots, over half of pilots are not confident in the aircraft, is not very good at attacking ground targets at a time where that is the top role of planes, and has low operational readiness. Overrated I have to agree.

Of the 2,200 F-15s made, about 12 were lost (crashes) IIRC. Of the 195 F-22s, at least 5 have been lost IIRC.

At a certain point, the public has to demand some sort of accountability in regards to this stuff. The F-22 program is the result of poor administrative oversight and we all have paid the hefty bill...for 195 planes with no real role and questionable combat capability.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 12:09 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
As of right now, the F-22 cannot observe its operational ceiling, has never seen combat, is still suffocating pilots, over half of pilots are not confident in the aircraft, is not very good at attacking ground targets at a time where that is the top role of planes, and has low operational readiness. Overrated I have to agree.

Of the 2,200 F-15s made, about 12 were lost (crashes) IIRC. Of the 195 F-22s, at least 5 have been lost IIRC.

At a certain point, the public has to demand some sort of accountability in regards to this stuff. The F-22 program is the result of poor administrative oversight and we all have paid the hefty bill...for 195 planes with no real role and questionable combat capability.
Full on fusillade, I like it.
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