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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:39 AM   #26
Pagemakers
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Sadly, you've chosen an extreme in your assumptions.

I pay my FULL tax. In the UK apple and the rest of the clan should to. It's that simple.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:53 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Pagemakers View Post
Sadly, you've chosen an extreme in your assumptions.
Could you suggest better ones, or maybe just clarify your original statement so that assumptions aren't required? Thanks.

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I pay my FULL tax. In the UK apple and the rest of the clan should to. It's that simple.
I pay my 'full' tax too. I'd be put in jail if i didn't. I suspect I overpay because tax legislation is horrendously complicated over here and I can't be bothered employing experts to make sure I'm not overpaying. It probably wouldn't be cost effective for me, to be brutally honest: I don't earn enough.

My personal situation aside. Do you think Apple is evading tax (breaking the law) or just minimizing their tax (since it's worth their while employing expensive tax consultants)?
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:03 AM   #28
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They are not breaking any law.

The reason for my original post was to highlight the strange fact that Starbucks are taking a real battering on the App Store reviews over their tax avoidance and it has now come to light that Apple are doing the same and suddenly it's alright.

There are lots of things in life that are not illegal but are morally questionable. I just wish these company's didn't profess to be one thing and then do the other.

Don't you just love shareholders!
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 07:20 AM   #29
jeremy h
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The reason for my original post was to highlight the strange fact that Starbucks are taking a real battering on the App Store reviews over their tax avoidance and it has now come to light that Apple are doing the same and suddenly it's alright.
I agree - no, it's not alright. But in a way I don't blame the companies as such. (They'll just grab whatever they can.) There's been a massive political failure here in the way HM Revenue and Customs deals with large companies. I think it all probably started with Mrs Thatcher (and her idea we would make a fortune by becoming the world's middle men) and was taken to it's conclusion by the prawn cocktail assault on big business by Labour. There's a very cosy relationship between the tax people, politicians and the big business leaders. This was recently evidenced by the example of Dave Hartnett* (who's now retired, I think) the ex head of HMRC who was wined and dined around 110 times in a couple of years by the big firms. Oooh... it must be so easy to come a nice compromise after a decent bottle of claret. We'll never really know what fat deals they did as both sides also hide behind 'taxpayer confidentiality' so these dodgy deals are very difficult to question.

Perhaps it's quite fitting it's November the 5th.

* Hartnett was named by City University London in July 2010 as the most "wined and dined" civil servant in Britain.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:14 PM   #30
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Apple as well as all other corporations should only pay taxes in accordance to the tax laws. Since Apple did not create the tax laws, it can't be blamed for not paying taxes. The blame should be placed where it belongs.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:09 PM   #31
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Apple as well as all other corporations should only pay taxes in accordance to the tax laws. Since Apple did not create the tax laws, it can't be blamed for not paying taxes. The blame should be placed where it belongs.
That's not entirely true. They have Swiss banks, Caymans, Lichtenstein, Chinese banks where companies/individuals can hide their money and not pay taxes. So it's not always the people/companies complying with the law. I'm not saying Apple is doing this, I have no idea, but a lot of people are.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:21 PM   #32
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That's not entirely true. They have Swiss banks, Caymans, Lichtenstein,
All of which are legal financial centres.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:25 PM   #33
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All of which are legal financial centres.
legal according to who? It's pretty much a well known fact they help circumvent taxes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...76a_story.html

That's just the first article that came up, but you can do your own research.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:28 PM   #34
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legal according to who?
Our governments.

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It's pretty much a well known fact they help circumvent taxes.
Of course, and so do Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, who along with the Cayman Islands are all British colonies.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:33 PM   #35
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Our governments.
It depends how they are used, but I wouldn't say everything that goes on is entirely legal.

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Of course, and so do Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, who along with the Cayman Islands are all British colonies.
I was just giving examples off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are others. I'm not really privy to the UK banking industry.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:40 PM   #36
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That's not entirely true. They have Swiss banks, Caymans, Lichtenstein, Chinese banks where companies/individuals can hide their money and not pay taxes. So it's not always the people/companies complying with the law. I'm not saying Apple is doing this, I have no idea, but a lot of people are.
That's completely true. Te tax laws and the loopholes are created by our government. And it's not only the richest Americans and corporations taking advantage of the tax laws and loopholes, but also the not so rich individuals and small companies. Some members of Congress take advantage of the the same laws too. A lot of them have investments, accounts, and the rest in the same places you have mentioned above. Some others have apartments, places outside of the US to keep ships, aircraft, and so forth. Some members of Congress "forget" to declare property overseas to later be caught by the IRS. But even so, they can take care of themselves and work deals with the IRS (another government agency).
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Last edited by AlaskaMoose; Nov 5, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:52 PM   #37
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That's completely true. Te tax laws and the loopholes are created by our government. And it's not only the richest Americans and corporations taking advantage of the tax laws and loop holes, but not so rich individuals and small companies. Some members of Congress take advantage of the the tax laws too. A lot of them have investments, accounts, and the rest in the same places you have mentioned above.
I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, or what our tax laws have to do with international banking practices. If the IRS doesn't know about money/earnings etc in international banks, they can't tax them on it. Some of this is probably within the grey area of the law, but some of it is not legal. I'm not making accusations about who is or isn't doing this, but there are a lot of people doing illegal things. It's not really a secret.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:51 PM   #38
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Nothing wrong with some intelligent tax planning


Do people actually expect a huge corporation to just pay maximum tax rates so that it's "fair"? Shareholders would probably sue the company if it was purposefully avoiding tax breaks.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:02 PM   #39
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I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, or what our tax laws have to do with international banking practices. If the IRS doesn't know about money/earnings etc in international banks, they can't tax them on it. Some of this is probably within the grey area of the law, but some of it is not legal. I'm not making accusations about who is or isn't doing this, but there are a lot of people doing illegal things. It's not really a secret.
Yes, there are a lot of people doing illegal things. But all I am saying is that anything that has to do with taxes is already covered under the law. Our government enacts the tax laws and the loopholes that make it legal for corporations and individuals to avoid paying corporate and other taxes. If our government closes the loopholes, then corporations and individuals could not get away with it. What Apple, GE, and the rest are doing is perfectly legal under the tax laws created by Congress. I imagine that a majority of Americans don't like these loopholes, and would like to see Congress closing them. Meanwhile, we can't blame corporations or individual using the tax laws in their favor. The blame is with our Government.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:12 PM   #40
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"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes..."

Dagnabbit. I'm one of those little people.

Big corporations will continue not paying taxes because, to paraphrase Virgil Sollozo, of all of those politicians that they carry around in their pocket, like so many nickels and dimes.
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