'Project Azalea' - A TSMC Chip Factory Dedicated to Building Processors for iDevices?

[iphoneclassic]

Originally Posted by ThomasJL

If Apple uses chips based on TSMC's 20-nanometer process, it would have two benefits for practically all consumers:
1) Power consumption would be reduced, thus resulting in longer battery life.
2) Clock-for-clock speed increase over the current A6X chips, thus resulting in Safari being snappier.

Your assumption is correct in its simple form. But as iOS and Apps get bloated, most of the increase in processor speed is offset just to cater iOS and Apps. End user sees only tiny bit of improvement. That's why all companies just compare the processor speed in their marketing without talking about OS/App requirement.

[uknowimright]

Originally Posted by samcraig

I'm also pretty sure that Samsung makes a LOT more electronic products they market/advertise than Apple.

Is that chart just computers/mobile electronics?My guess is no.

yup, here are some of the range of products (not even counting various lines of each product range) that they need to market in many different places around the world

TVs, Blu-Ray players, Home Theater Systems, Cell Phones, Tablets, Laptops, Media Players, Cameras, Camcorders, SD Cards, All-in-One PCs, Monitors, Printers, SDDs & HDDs, Washer & Dryers, Refrigerators, Microwaves, Dishwashers, Stoves/Ranges, Vacuums, LED Lighting and accessories for all of them

[Glassed Silver]

Originally Posted by ThunderSkunk

Will buy US-made anything at this point.

After reading up on quantum computing, it'd be pretty wild to see Apple spend the $ and do something under their own roof that just up and blew everyones doors off .

Tasty...

(quantum is still quite far away, but it'd kick ass if Apple could pull something off here)

Glassed Silver:mac

[wizard]

Originally Posted by ThomasJL

If Apple uses chips based on TSMC's 20-nanometer process, it would have two benefits for practically all consumers:
1) Power consumption would be reduced, thus resulting in longer battery life.

This is true. However on iOS devices the backlight is a huge power drain.

2) Clock-for-clock speed increase over the current A6X chips, thus resulting in Safari being snappier.

Not so much clock for clock if the architecture remains the same. However smaller processes do allow for more transistors on chip thus more functionality but then you have a new architecture. The biggest benefit of the process shrink is that clock rates can be increased without a power penalty.

Of course when Apple can increase clock rates on a new architecture, like A6, we make out like bandits. One should not assume that this will happen with every product revision though.

[nuckinfutz]

Originally Posted by wizard

This is true. However on iOS devices the backlight is a huge power drain.

Not so much clock for clock if the architecture remains the same. However smaller processes do allow for more transistors on chip thus more functionality but then you have a new architecture. The biggest benefit of the process shrink is that clock rates can be increased without a power penalty.

Of course when Apple can increase clock rates on a new architecture, like A6, we make out like bandits. One should not assume that this will happen with every product revision though.

Yup. The engineers must love the extra latitude that a process shrink brings. They can go up higher in clock frequency or expand out with more cores all while staying within their target Thermal Design.

I think the next 5-7 years should continue to see excellent work done in low power designs and improvements in battery technology.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by blackcrayon

I don't know when it started being associated with Safari, but back in the very early days of Mac OS X, every time a point release would come out (eg 10.0.3) people would install it and say it feels "snappier" -even though there really weren't any performance improvements being implemented by Apple at that point.

Safari has been ip under continuous development for years now. Performance improvements are often implemented and frankly they have gotten JavaScript performance to the point that it is leading edge.

In a lot of cases the Macs got slightly faster at launching apps because of the optimization routines that are run when software is installed, or they just got a temporary speed boost from actually being rebooted due to the install (since for the first time the majority of Mac users could go "forever" without rebooting compared to classic Mac OS).

Actually Mac OS has seen some regressions from time to time. Generally though Safari has gotten better performance wise over time. It is pretty easy to see this in the various web benchmarks that float around.

I realize the "Safari is snappier" phrase has become a joke, however one can't dismiss that it is indeed snappier especially when seen up against much older versions of Safari.

[hchung]

Originally Posted by lilo777

Samsung has not lost anything. Right at this moment Apple CPUs are manufactured by Samsung in Texas. And the way Samsung is gaining market share in smart phones (which is now 50% higher than that of Apple) they will need this Texas FAB for their own chips. Apple's share in smart phones in 2012 was reported at 20%. They are not really that big of a player.

Uh... did you happen to know that Samsung doesn't necessarily use Samsung SoCs and Samsung basebands in Samsung smartphones?

Silly, I know. But that fab's production capacity is way too much for Samsung's own consumption.

[jacksonkeller]

Originally Posted by mrxak

It's what the NY state government wants, I agree. There is expertise here. Thanks to IBM, of course, there's a skilled labor pool in the area, and there's also the educational programs. For example, RIT in Rochester has its own fab. You've got other big tech schools in the area like RPI, WPI, and of course MIT, so the northeast is a great place for technology education. NYSTAR has been active in turning NY into a major player in technology, particularly hardware I think, taking advantage of all those local tech students.

I really don't know what Oregon has going for it, other than proximity to the Pacific. I hope NY gets the factory.

Portland, Austin, Phoenix and others have a large volume of former fab workers who have the job skills in place. So when a new fab is built, the talent pool is ready. Also the support system is there,like equipment and chemical vendors all have local offices and repair techs for when that pesky canon stepper breaks down again. A Hitachi SEM broke down in a fab I worked at years ago, and the vendor rep had to come from Cali to fix it.

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Originally Posted by hchung

Uh... did you happen to know that Samsung doesn't necessarily use Samsung SoCs and Samsung basebands in Samsung smartphones?

Silly, I know. But that fab's production capacity is way too much for Samsung's own consumption.

Yep, if I worked at that Austin Samsung fab the Apple/Samsung war would make me very nervous about my job security.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by apple-win

Please name a Nobel Prize in Medicine winner who is major in electrical engineering.

What does that have to do with this discussion. The point of my statements is that people have an affinity for certain technologies. An engineer that is extremely talented with respect to circuit engineering may be a bumbling fool when it dealing with sickness related to the liver.

I know, nuclear industry advocates say the same thing.

Issues with the nuclear industry are largely overblown. Generally the fear mongers exploit the ignorance of people that don't know any better. Nuclear power plants simply are not a danger in the way that many make them out to be. The fact is even with the issue Japan recently suffered, nobody died from the reactors overheating. Many thousands died from the earthquake and tsunami but they are forgotten so a bunch of nut cases can focus on nuclear power that killed no one.

Honestly man you need to address your position here and the lack of a grasp of the facts. There isn't a size able industry in existence that doesn't produce pollution to some extent or another. The responsible thing to do here is to contain and minimize that pollution.

There is no free lunch, even Apples solar farm harms the environment. They have effectively removed much vegetation from the surface of the earth, created an eyesore and now have to manage water run off that once was a natural water shed. Not to mention is the idea that solar based systems won't produce enough power to offset the pollution created in their manufacture. So you have to ask yourself did Apple make the right move with the solar plant. It is hard to say but frankly a nuclear power source would have had less impact on the environment.

[Axemantitan]

Originally Posted by flottenheimer

Nice one. I wonder why they own that url. WHY?

Supposedly, it comes from an op-ed that John Grisham (novelist and Mac user) wrote in support of Apple in the late 90's (when Apple was really struggling) saying that Apple changed the world by introducing the world to this "little mammal" (the computer mouse).

(He wasn't saying that Apple invented the mouse, but that they popularized it.)

[hchung]

Originally Posted by nuckinfutz

Yup. The engineers must love the extra latitude that a process shrink brings. They can go up higher in clock frequency or expand out with more cores all while staying within their target Thermal Design.

I think the next 5-7 years should continue to see excellent work done in low power designs and improvements in battery technology.

The logic engineers will be pleased.

But a process shrink isn't all fun and games. Initial yield for a process will always be lower because it's simply going to be harder to produce. Plus there will be reliability and power issues with increased leakage current.

[topdrawer]

this engineer guy i met at a fancy party was talking about apple planning to move manufacturing to the US. i don't know much about his credibility, he seemed to have too much info on any subject that came up and ranted on and on.

[Bubba Satori]

Originally Posted by inscrewtable

Apple declares nucular war.

Thanks for this afternoon's laugh.

[TMay]

Originally Posted by wizard

What does that have to do with this discussion. The point of my statements is that people have an affinity for certain technologies. An engineer that is extremely talented with respect to circuit engineering may be a bumbling fool when it dealing with sickness related to the liver.


Issues with the nuclear industry are largely overblown. Generally the fear mongers exploit the ignorance of people that don't know any better. Nuclear power plants simply are not a danger in the way that many make them out to be. The fact is even with the issue Japan recently suffered, nobody died from the reactors overheating. Many thousands died from the earthquake and tsunami but they are forgotten so a bunch of nut cases can focus on nuclear power that killed no one.

Honestly man you need to address your position here and the lack of a grasp of the facts. There isn't a size able industry in existence that doesn't produce pollution to some extent or another. The responsible thing to do here is to contain and minimize that pollution.

There is no free lunch, even Apples solar farm harms the environment. They have effectively removed much vegetation from the surface of the earth, created an eyesore and now have to manage water run off that once was a natural water shed. Not to mention is the idea that solar based systems won't produce enough power to offset the pollution created in their manufacture. So you have to ask yourself did Apple make the right move with the solar plant. It is hard to say but frankly a nuclear power source would have had less impact on the environment.

Your good.

It's snark, right?

[nuckinfutz]

Originally Posted by hchung

The logic engineers will be pleased.

But a process shrink isn't all fun and games. Initial yield for a process will always be lower because it's simply going to be harder to produce. Plus there will be reliability and power issues with increased leakage current.

It'll be interesting to see how effective TSMC's FinFET is once deployed on a mass scale.

[Glideslope]

...it's going to be Oneida, NY.

[apple-win]

[QUOTE=wizard;16523568]

...

Issues with the nuclear industry are largely overblown. Generally the fear mongers exploit the ignorance of people that don't know any better. Nuclear power plants simply are not a danger in the way that many make them out to be. The fact is even with the issue Japan recently suffered, nobody died from the reactors overheating. Many thousands died from the earthquake and tsunami but they are forgotten so a bunch of nut cases can focus on nuclear power that killed no one.

Honestly man you need to address your position here and the lack of a grasp of the facts. There isn't a size able industry in existence that doesn't produce pollution to some extent or another. The responsible thing to do here is to contain and minimize that pollution.

.......

QUOTE]

I know, nobody dies immediately from the nuclear meltdown in Fukushima, Japan.

Please read this, radioactive rice found in Fukushima.

Do you want to live in Fukushima? You have no fear, how about you eat some sushi and sashimi from Fukushima?

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Radia...nts-26170.html

[apple-win]

Originally Posted by firewood

Then we need many more fab lines. Human life expectancy in countries that do a lot of leading-edge semiconductor manufacturing is longer than the planetary average. If fabs are poison, then more fabs in those countries will help even things out.

You know, the grandma and grandpa in those countries grow up without a fab lines in their town. It's not surprising that they are longevities.

Please make sure you raise your kids next to a fab line. Water tastes good there

[blackcrayon]

Originally Posted by wizard

Safari has been ip under continuous development for years now. Performance improvements are often implemented and frankly they have gotten JavaScript performance to the point that it is leading edge.


Actually Mac OS has seen some regressions from time to time. Generally though Safari has gotten better performance wise over time. It is pretty easy to see this in the various web benchmarks that float around.

I realize the "Safari is snappier" phrase has become a joke, however one can't dismiss that it is indeed snappier especially when seen up against much older versions of Safari.

I realize Safari has iteself been improving. I was just speaking to the origin of "teh snappy" (or at least when I first heard it repeatedly used) in Apple product related forums

I find iOS Safari to easily be the smoothest, fastest feeling mobile browser around (when run on up to date devices). I haven't personally used Windows Phone 8 though (have tried a Surface and a ton of Android browsers).

[hot spare]

And just when people thought Samsung is losing it's bread and butter, they announce to invest further 3.9 billion in TX.

I think they are investing because they have a lot of free capacity. Sounds logical to me:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BJ0A220121220

BTW, anybody in mood for flexible displays?

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/19/s...splay-for-ces/

[andrebismara]

Project Azalea sounds fishy... Will Apple finally release an organic processor to the end consumer? :P Very unlikely, but it's Apple, we never know what comes next

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Originally Posted by hot spare

And just when people thought Samsung is losing it's bread and butter, they announce to invest further 3.9 billion in TX.

I think they are investing because they have a lot of free capacity. Sounds logical to me:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BJ0A220121220

BTW, anybody in mood for flexible displays?

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/19/s...splay-for-ces/

Samsung is loaded, it's the biggest electronics company nowadays in the world, and they cater to all sorts of products (TV, blu rays, mobile, tablets, pc, laptop, washing machines, refrigerators, air conditioners). I can assure you money is no problem at all for them

[Middleman-77]

Maybe 'Azalea' is in reference to an onboard audio chip being added to the A6 CPU?

As this was the codename for the previous generation of audio drivers used in OSX...perhaps Apple wants to do this with the new SoC chip to cut costs...

[lilo777]

Originally Posted by hchung

Uh... did you happen to know that Samsung doesn't necessarily use Samsung SoCs and Samsung basebands in Samsung smartphones?

Silly, I know. But that fab's production capacity is way too much for Samsung's own consumption.

Not much at all. At least according to DigiTimes research:
"Loss of Apple processor orders unlikely to affect Samsung"

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by lilo777

Not much at all. At least according to DigiTimes research:
"Loss of Apple processor orders unlikely to affect Samsung"

Oh, the fans won't like to hear that losing Apple might actually help Samsung!