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Old Jan 6, 2013, 05:36 PM   #126
snberk103
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Originally Posted by jessica. View Post
That is perfectly acceptable and the numbers are there; however, show me the numbers that correlate to this idea that a tourist is going to be shot and tourists are at great risk. It was an incredibly narrow-minded comment and the assumption that a tourist is in grave danger regardless is absurd.
....
You gotta look at it from their point of view. The poster lives in a country where virtually every single shooting is front page news, because there are so few of them. They then look at a place that they may want to visit to relax, and because they read these threads notes the difference in shootings. It looks scary, and it is scary. Yes... I know you have greater risk of being bit by a dog.... but that is not the message that people see when they look at what is happening. I live in Canada, and I visit relatives in NYC so I know the reality. And we worry about our safety when we visit... even though our rate of firearm deaths is 10x the UK rate ... because we know with our heads that we are (mostly) safe. But feeling safe is not entirely rational. Americans have grown so accustomed to this risk that they don't appreciate that others do fear it.... rationally or not. It doesn't help to read that someone in the US is now promoting bullet proof vests for school children.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 05:53 PM   #127
djjclark
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
Sorry Jessica, I normally agree with you... but even leaving aside the recent tragedy which is a rare, the stats are that being in the US means you are much more likely to be shot than any where else in the industrialized world. It is still very remote possibility... but when people consider the benefits of visiting, they also weight the risks. And that risk is much higher in the US. The poster you are replying to comes from the UK with 0.25 firearm deaths per 100,000 people. The US rate is over 10 deaths per 100,000 people.... or over 40 times more risky than in the UK.
Can you source these numbers? Current intentional murder rates are much lower for the US (4.9) and higher for the UK (1.2). I imagine if you stay out of known lowlife areas you would be similarly safe in either place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 07:41 PM   #128
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Its better to run a tab so you can just tip appropriately at the end of the night. Its probably cheaper too.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 08:43 PM   #129
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It is customary here in the US to get multiple drinks and pay at the end. It seems to work faster that way, at least to me. You had a bartender your card and ask them to keep it open and every time you get a drink you say "Its under (insert last name)" and you're done. I know the times I visited South Beach in Miami there was automatic 18% on everything, and 1 of the servers told me it was because European tourists never tip well, since I guess its not customary over there to do 20% as it sounds like by this thread. I do agree it can be a tad much though sometimes. Same place, Miami at club LIV a grey goose and sugar free redbull is 27.00 per drink, so you can imagine what your tab looks like at the end of the night and then 18% on top of that.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 09:07 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JoshMKB24 View Post
Miami at club LIV a grey goose and sugar free redbull is 27.00 per drink, so you can imagine what your tab looks like at the end of the night and then 18% on top of that.
Who in their right mind spends $27 on a red bull and vodka?
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 09:36 PM   #131
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Who in their right mind spends $27 on a red bull and vodka?
People that just need to go to clubs in Miami. He also makes the odd assumption that 20% is a given in the U.S., which I disagree with.

Bare bones trash service? Loose change to 10%. Mediocre service? About 15%. Good+ service? 20%+

And that's coming from someone who really maintains relatively low service standards and is impossible to anger. I give most everyone 18-20%+ unless they're just that awful, but I never stiff someone completely.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 10:06 PM   #132
JoshMKB24
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Originally Posted by malman89 View Post
People that just need to go to clubs in Miami. He also makes the odd assumption that 20% is a given in the U.S., which I disagree with.

Bare bones trash service? Loose change to 10%. Mediocre service? About 15%. Good+ service? 20%+

And that's coming from someone who really maintains relatively low service standards and is impossible to anger. I give most everyone 18-20%+ unless they're just that awful, but I never stiff someone completely.
I don't think 20% is a given, but thats kind of the standard set so you give more or less based on the 20% I am probably like you, I am hard to anger and after working in restaurants in HS, I tend to give a lot to people in the service industry. The only time I gave someone 0 was when the order was all wrong, the appetizers never came and they still tried to charge for appetizers and the server was rude.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 10:28 PM   #133
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This has been a really interesting read. I don't think I would like to leave a credit card with the bar especially with card skimming being such an issue so I guess I would have to be a pay as you go cash customer. I also think of the non minimum minimum wage as a bit of a cop out for business owners who would be paying fixed amounts for electricity, rent, consumables, insurance etc from their suppliers who then get away with paying such low rates to their employees who only really have the choice of looking for something else or doing their job properly if they want to make ends meet. Anyway its good to hear all the different views.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 10:40 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by djjclark View Post
Can you source these numbers? ...
Answered in a PM - to stay out of PRSI.
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Old Jan 6, 2013, 11:20 PM   #135
malman89
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Also, the only reason I don't open a tab at the bar is to avoid a disaster.

I'm not typically one to buy random people shots/drinks or do it outside of friends paying a round at a time, but just having that open is a temptation others can't resist.

I like taking $40-60 out of the ATM and calling it a night. I can see once I break that last $20 that I'm hitting E on the tank and need to slow down and make the rest last.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 08:23 AM   #136
Mr-Kerrse
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I couldn't imagine the staff in the local pub expecting an extra 1 a drink, they would soon have no customers !

I am all for tipping for food & good service but would never leave a tip just for someone to pour me a drink

I have been to a few places in the UK where they give your change on a tray obviously expecting a tip but seriously you can't expect a tip just for pouring a drink thats crazy !

I can see things are very different in the America from reading this thread, i don't understand why they don't charge a little more & pay their staff more rather than use the very odd system.

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Old Jan 7, 2013, 09:36 AM   #137
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Usually I start a tab, which means I'll tip well at the end of the night. Always 25%.

I NEVER carry cash. I've had 1 bar ask for cash in the past 5 years. I drank my 3 dollar beer and left three crisp 1 dollar bills.
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Old Jan 7, 2013, 09:44 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by wvuwhat View Post
Usually I start a tab, which means I'll tip well at the end of the night. Always 25%.

I NEVER carry cash. I've had 1 bar ask for cash in the past 5 years. I drank my 3 dollar beer and left three crisp 1 dollar bills.
Yeah, I don't like carrying large sums of cash with me either. I try to avoid bars that are cash only, fortunately for me, most night clubs aren't that way. I also try to avoid bars that don't take AMEX. 25% is pretty generous! I'm sure your bartenders love you! At some establishments where I know the staff I'll tip the bartender like 60 and she'll just charge me like 1.00 a drink the whole night, but 25% is definitely more than I'll do on a regular basis!
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 10:48 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by JoshMKB24 View Post
Yeah, I don't like carrying large sums of cash with me either. I try to avoid bars that are cash only, fortunately for me, most night clubs aren't that way. I also try to avoid bars that don't take AMEX. 25% is pretty generous! I'm sure your bartenders love you! At some establishments where I know the staff I'll tip the bartender like 60 and she'll just charge me like 1.00 a drink the whole night, but 25% is definitely more than I'll do on a regular basis!
What can I say? I'm pretty generous after a night of drinking, I'm a happy drunk.
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Old Jan 9, 2013, 11:27 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dagless View Post
And they added a 20% (I think?) mandatory tip because we had a party of more than 6 people.
Yes, 20% tip is usually expected now if a party of 6 or more. Otherwise, 15% tip is usual in the States.

ALSO... tipping is usually not expected if you patronize a self-service restaurant, where the first thing you do is to order your food at the counter, pay the cashier in advance, and then when your food is ready, you walk up to the Pick-Up counter and fetch your food yourself.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 08:44 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
Servers and bartenders here do not even make minimum wage. So you not tipping is considered extremely rude.
I agree 100%. Good service deserves a good tip, and not just the minimum.

Quote:
Its no wonder you're paid such a low wage.
They are paid a low wage because they are expected to get tips. Most retail workers are expected to get commission. Unless you work for Apple that is, wouldn't want to see someone making $53,000 a year on 5% sales of Macs.

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If you smile and do your job properly i would consider leaving a tip.
If you customarily get the opposite change the places you eat and drink. There was an Applebees down the street from our home that was just awful. I had to ask the server why she was so terrible, and she sat down and gave me an earful about the job training and her coworkers. I left a tip and never came back.

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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Gee, the service in the US is not so great, but its not nearly as bad as it is in France.

If you want some really awful service, go to France.
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Originally Posted by SiPi View Post
Wow... This is a typical type of negative attitude i receive from staff and servers in the US.
I will never understand some folks obsession with taking cheap shots at entire countries, or entire religions, entire ideologies, etc.

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Originally Posted by leekohler View Post
I would not come to your country and disregard your customs and expect you to just deal with it.
Lee, you're one of a kind. One day folks will realize that stereotypes are just that. Not all Americans are void of the cultural differences that we and others identify with, nor are all Americans disrespectful of them.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 09:10 AM   #142
JoshMKB24
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What can I say? I'm pretty generous after a night of drinking, I'm a happy drunk.
Haha yep! Rounds of Patron and Jack! I try to be pretty generous with the service industry. They work crappy hours and have to deal with other people's *****. When I see people being rude to a server at a restaurant for no reason I just want to kick them.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:32 PM   #143
snberk103
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I am against the concept of a customary 'mandatory' tip because it is false advertizing. The price of a meal or a drink should include the labour to bring it to the table. Restaurant/bar owners get a free ride from this practice. Yes, in a busy or successful establishment I'm sure it somehow balances out in the end. But in a less than successful establishment or a slow shift it is the employee who pays the price... not the owner.

It is also a wonderful way to fire someone without having to actually go through the hassle of justifying the cause. Just schedule them for the non-tipping shifts.

Tips should be an optional way to reward good service...not just competent service. I expect competent service... I want to be able to reward good service. A tip should mean that I had a really good time, thanks to their efforts. A tip shouldn't be just because the business is too cheap to pay a minimum wage.

/rant
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 07:07 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
I am against the concept of a customary 'mandatory' tip because it is false advertizing. The price of a meal or a drink should include the labour to bring it to the table. Restaurant/bar owners get a free ride from this practice. Yes, in a busy or successful establishment I'm sure it somehow balances out in the end. But in a less than successful establishment or a slow shift it is the employee who pays the price... not the owner.

It is also a wonderful way to fire someone without having to actually go through the hassle of justifying the cause. Just schedule them for the non-tipping shifts.

Tips should be an optional way to reward good service...not just competent service. I expect competent service... I want to be able to reward good service. A tip should mean that I had a really good time, thanks to their efforts. A tip shouldn't be just because the business is too cheap to pay a minimum wage.

/rant
Nevertheless, a tip is expected in the US, so visitors to the US should be sensitive of the common practices, just as you would expect visitors to be sensitive of the common practices of your country.

The answer to the argument of "Why must one tip in the US?" is a simple one: one must tip, because it is expected.

The answer to the argument of "Why does the US continue on with this tipping expectation in the service industries?" is also a simple one: it is insanely stupid, but there is no way the large majority of service-oriented business will change their pay practices such that tipping is no longer expected. It's stupid, but we are stuck with it.

To take your customary tipping practice further, snberk... in Japan and other Asian countries, if you were to try to tip an employee for good service as you are wont to do... you would seriously offend that person, and their acceptance of a tip of that nature could affect their position in that establishment.

Would you disregard the common practices and expectations in a country like Japan and insist upon continuing your personal customs and practices, even at the possible cost of a person's job?

Or, as I would expect someone who is sensitive of other peoples' culture and traditions, would you respect that culture's expectations and adjust your own accordingly?

That, is the point that leekohler was trying to make: you have to learn and act according to the common practices and expectations of the country that you are visiting. So, if you are a visitor to the US, you must adhere to the common practices and expectations of dining and imbibing in the US, just as you would expect a visitor to your country to do the same.

TL;DR:
Adjust your practices and beliefs to be sensitive to those of the country that you are visiting. If that means no tip is expected, then you don't tip (eg. Japan). If that means a tip is expected, then you must tip (eg. the US).

And yes, we know it's stupid. But there's nothing to be done about it.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 07:16 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Caris View Post
Can someone clear this up? It's something I've never understood and I've meant to ask for years, am I picking it up wrong? How does it work?
Quite Simply -
1. The Bar knows you well. Pay when you leave.
I never have to ask - Walk in - It's served before I get coat off.

2. Busy Upper End Pubs usually ask for CC in advance - your good to Go.

3. How You Tip in the end makes a huge difference.
Walk in a month later - your drink served w/o asking - They get tipped well.

I know what you mean - it's typical in Europe to pay as you go.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:25 PM   #146
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Nevertheless, a tip is expected in the US, so visitors to the US should be sensitive of the common practices, just as you would expect visitors to be sensitive of the common practices of your country.
....
And yes, we know it's stupid. But there's nothing to be done about it.
Oh, I know all of that .... and I abide by the customs of whatever country I'm in ... In the US to do otherwise would be to doubly victimize the server. But I don't have to like it.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 01:31 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by snberk103 View Post
Oh, I know all of that .... and I abide by the customs of whatever country I'm in ... In the US to do otherwise would be to doubly victimize the server. But I don't have to like it.
Oh, don't get me wrong... I hate it, too. And I don't think most servers would disagree, either.
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