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Old May 21, 2013, 03:20 PM   #201
Mago
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Originally Posted by JM-Prod View Post
I did, right before your long post I commented on.

----------



Pro users won't care about Apple if they don't give them what they need. Then they'll just switch platform.

To be competitive, a new MacPro must have:
4k-support
Power and space for multiple GPU's
Internal raid option
Expansion slots for interface cards
2 x modern Xeon CPU's
Agree Except for *Expansion slots...* for those is far enough Thunderbolt and USB3.

To support 4K only needs a competitive video card, actually all top range Quadro cards support 4K Video, the problem maybe the interface, 4K video is only supported bu HDMI 1.4 and DisplayPort 1.2.

Maybe no multiple GPU CARDs if a propertary formfactor for GPU is used, a single card may hold multiple GPUs with simplified and more reliable assemby/setup (and more Apple Control).

So I foresee 3 Possible Mac Pro (or solutions for mac pro users, remeber Coock no explicit mention on a mac pro update):

1 Revised Tower with propertary sligthy modified PCIe X16

2 New NeXT like Form Factor, with an very custom square PCIe X16 Slot with upto 4 GPUs on a single board, also those slots maybe used to host some number crushing card, based on Xeon Phi and using OnBoard Xeon GPU for Video Duties.

3 The Worst but a real possibity, is a "workstation" grade *iMac Pro* a revamped iMac with mobile Xeon and Quadro ...

BTW next Mac pro will not have PCIE X1/X4 slots, and no CD/DVD, and and maybe no 3.5 HDD trays, instead a 2.5" internal Hybrid Raid
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Old May 21, 2013, 06:44 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
Agree Except for *Expansion slots...* for those is far enough Thunderbolt and USB3.

To support 4K only needs a competitive video card, actually all top range Quadro cards support 4K Video, the problem maybe the interface, 4K video is only supported bu HDMI 1.4 and DisplayPort 1.2.

Maybe no multiple GPU CARDs if a propertary formfactor for GPU is used, a single card may hold multiple GPUs with simplified and more reliable assemby/setup (and more Apple Control).

So I foresee 3 Possible Mac Pro (or solutions for mac pro users, remeber Coock no explicit mention on a mac pro update):

1 Revised Tower with propertary sligthy modified PCIe X16

2 New NeXT like Form Factor, with an very custom square PCIe X16 Slot with upto 4 GPUs on a single board, also those slots maybe used to host some number crushing card, based on Xeon Phi and using OnBoard Xeon GPU for Video Duties.

3 The Worst but a real possibity, is a "workstation" grade *iMac Pro* a revamped iMac with mobile Xeon and Quadro ...

BTW next Mac pro will not have PCIE X1/X4 slots, and no CD/DVD, and and maybe no 3.5 HDD trays, instead a 2.5" internal Hybrid Raid
I disagree
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Old May 21, 2013, 08:28 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post
I don't think many film makers would agree with you.
They all secretly agree when they switch to FCX behind their curtains to meet strickt deadlines.

Seriously, FCX are gaining momentum.

And, Apple has been sucsesfull in the past due to innovation and tight bonds to the creative industries. If they lose this bond, they'll lose their edge...
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:30 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by JM-Prod View Post
I don't agree. The retina MacBook is a really high-end piece of hardware, I only know scientists, film-makers and photographers who own one....
High end in design only. Most consumers looking for a mobile workstation (speed and portability) are picking up HP Elitebooks and Dells, maybe a Sager or something else.

The rMBP is definitely nice, but a workstation it is not. I think the book better serves users that have an Air but want a bigger screen, and media pros that don't need a workhorse machine to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mago View Post
Agree Except for *Expansion slots...* for those is far enough Thunderbolt and USB3.

To support 4K only needs a competitive video card, actually all top range Quadro cards support 4K Video, the problem maybe the interface, 4K video is only supported bu HDMI 1.4 and DisplayPort 1.2.
The biggest problem is you need more than just a video card to support 4K, and most big iron production machines need more than just the paltry 3 open slots a MacPro offers.

In the end . . . . . as I've said before many times . . . . . the idea that a user will buy a crippled pro workstation/MacMini Pro and then plug a whole bunch of PCI boxes and RAID boxes into it and call it a workstation doesn't fit Apple's motif, and is the WORST idea ever conceived for production houses.

Apple will KILL the MacPro

-- or --

Give users the ONLY option available for an updated workstation which is:

Making it faster, more upgradeable, and a whole lot more cost effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JM-Prod View Post
They all secretly agree when they switch to FCX behind their curtains to meet strickt deadlines.

Seriously, FCX are gaining momentum.

And, Apple has been sucsesfull in the past due to innovation and tight bonds to the creative industries. If they lose this bond, they'll lose their edge...
Total lie.

FCPX isn't and never will gain much momentum in the pro video market. NO post house will ever be able to use that software until Apple does a serious overhaul of the code.

Not being able to do collaborative projects, not being able to plug into a storage array like an Avid ISIS or Facilis Terablock, not being able to play to air directly from timeline to a PTA server, etc. etc. etc. means no broadcast house will pick it up for serious work.

Avids are still producing (trust me it's like 70% but I can't find a link) most of the content you see on a screen. Premier a FAR second and Final Cut is slowly loosing ground to Adobe. Adobe is trying to put Avid features into their editor and fill the gaps left behind by Apple (round tripping was TERRIBLE on FCP7, a dream in Premiere).

All that to say this:

Why would a cutter, who spends $10,000 for a workstation to cut on, care whether they cut on a Mac or a PC when the software is cross platform?

They won't, and that's why Apple will kill the MacPro. Cutters have gone to the excellent options on the other side. 7x HDD bays (two of which are 2.5") 2x double wide 16x PCI lanes, 4 additional (or more) PCI lanes for render cards, capture cards, eSATA, super speed SSD, fibre channel for Avid ISIS and Facilis systems, etc.

Please trust me. Saying FCPX is anything more than a great NLE for an indie filmmaker/freelancer/solo operation means there's a lot you're missing.
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Last edited by Digital Skunk; May 22, 2013 at 12:01 PM.
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Old May 21, 2013, 10:31 PM   #205
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Bet those suicide nets at Foxcon were starting to get too expensive.
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Old May 22, 2013, 01:29 AM   #206
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Store is down. I wonder what's happening.
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Old May 22, 2013, 10:31 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
Apple will KILL the MacPro or Give users the ONLY option available for an updated workstation which is: Making it faster, more upgradeable, and a whole lot more cost effective.
Interesting thoughts above from someone who seems to know what they're talking about. So you're saying that either they kill it or they upgrade it to such an extent that it becomes a true pro workstation again. Presumably that would involve raising the price a fair bit and targeting it solely at pro users like yourself rather than seeking to dumb it down a bit and widen it's appeal to prosumers like they've done with much of their pro software.

Interesting. I'm intrigued to see what they do. I don't think it will happen at WWDC but I'm hoping they will hold a desktop event later in the year to reveal all and who knows maybe some new/updated pro software as well.
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Old May 22, 2013, 12:12 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Shaun, UK View Post
Interesting thoughts above from someone who seems to know what they're talking about. So you're saying that either they kill it or they upgrade it to such an extent that it becomes a true pro workstation again. Presumably that would involve raising the price a fair bit and targeting it solely at pro users like yourself rather than seeking to dumb it down a bit and widen it's appeal to prosumers like they've done with much of their pro software.

Interesting. I'm intrigued to see what they do. I don't think it will happen at WWDC but I'm hoping they will hold a desktop event later in the year to reveal all and who knows maybe some new/updated pro software as well.
I'd love that, and that's exactly what I am . . . . somewhat waiting for. I am actually more of the freelancer/solo operations, but I do get called from time to time on contract to help cut a piece or DP a short film. I also teach, so our university has to give our students a taste of what's in the real world.

I always knew it was Avid, and never though FCP would catch on other than in the indie world. It did great in small houses and Indie setups with FCP Server, and Xserve and an Xserve RAID. But as Apple has said it's too expensive for R&D and Avid had been building systems like that for YEARS.

Apple bowed out and make far more money than Avid ever could with the iPhone and such. With that being said, Apple only really has the MacPro left which even at the six core version is a waste of money.

Yes, even from an end user stand point Apple only has those two options. Kill it and loose NO MONEY whatsoever from doing so. Run their own operations on MacMini servers and iMacs (which is already being done . . . I used to work for Apple retail in my dark ages of freelancing) and tell anyone that wants a Mac workstation for heavy lifting to spend $3500 on a rather enticing and well equipped iMac that surprisingly handles lite media work well.

Or update it and try to keep the bottom of the pro workstation market afloat with diehard Mac fans. But they will still need to do some serious overhauling to make the Mac Pro competitive. Not anything breakthrough needed, just a fast as hell box of bit crunching components.

Sorry . . . rant over.

p.s. Total marketing garbage here, but it does drive even the smallest point home: Apple is top notch at many things. Producing a workstation, desk or mobile; and high end collaborative, adaptable software isn't their forte.
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Old May 22, 2013, 07:40 PM   #209
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Total lie.
Ok, **** you too... Several of our in-house productions have been done on FCX lately, and a group I'm working with did several sequences for a million rating show on FCX due to it's efficiency. FCX is on to something. Avid is cool, Premiere is a hobby tool...
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Old May 22, 2013, 08:40 PM   #210
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Ok, **** you too... Several of our in-house productions have been done on FCX lately, and a group I'm working with did several sequences for a million rating show on FCX due to it's efficiency. FCX is on to something. Avid is cool, Premiere is a hobby tool...
Not saying you can't cut on FCPX. Just saying that it's not "becoming the next big thing." Avid is still so far ahead of the curve I doubt even Premiere will catch up. If you can afford the system, you'll get Avid, if not, then Premiere it is if you want an actual NLE along with a suite of other top notch apps.

If all you do is cut, and cut by yourself, never sharing a project or moving it off one workstation onto another, or if iMovie Pro is what you're looking for then FCPX is just fine.

If Premiere is the hobby tool, then BRING IT ON!
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Old May 23, 2013, 12:46 AM   #211
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Not saying you can't cut on FCPX. Just saying that it's not "becoming the next big thing." Avid is still so far ahead of the curve I doubt even Premiere will catch up.
Eh? Avid is dated, but still my tool of choice. Premiere is built as a FCP 7 competitor.

FCPX: the last updates for FCPX show that Apple means business. It's the most efficient editor on the market.

Btw, do you really think this looks like anything else than a professional tool:
http://digitalfilms.files.wordpress....f_fcpx06_3.jpg

?
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:20 AM   #212
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Eh? Avid is dated, but still my tool of choice. Premiere is built as a FCP 7 competitor.
Again, saying that Avid is dated doesn't help say anything but bad things about FCPX. Premiere was never made to be a FCP 7 competitor. We're talking 1991 with a Mac only version vs 1998 with a Mac and PC app that no one but Apple wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
"Apple purchased the team as a defensive move. When Apple could not find a buyer in turn, it continued development work, focusing on adding FireWire/DV support and introduced Final Cut Pro at NAB 1999."
Who would trust client work to an application that the . . . . buyer (original developer) wanted to sell, couldn't, and then decided to continue developing?

Quote:
FCPX: the last updates for FCPX show that Apple means business. It's the most efficient editor on the market.
No, it really doesn't show that Apple means business unless you're a solo shop or a post house that doesn't do any collaborative or remote work of any kind.

Just like the original discuss (which we've derailed) Apple may make a new Mac model but it may just be a 17" Retina for all we know. The Mac Pro isn't making them ANY money and isn't even a backbone of their infrastructure. FCPX isn't their bread and butter, bring home the bacon application . . . . they won't put much time into it. Not like Adobe or Avid.

As far as being the most efficient . . . . that's all relative and dependent on the editor. Otherwise, we could grad a high school kid that cuts faster on Movie Maker or iMovie than he does on FCPX or MC7.

Quote:
Btw, do you really think this looks like anything else than a professional tool:
http://digitalfilms.files.wordpress....f_fcpx06_3.jpg

?
Yes, it looks very nice, but looking nice and working well are two unrelated issues. The only thing Apple did well with FCPX is make it easier for cutters that don't have a professional background to pick it up, turn it on, and get cutting without thinking about all the things that matter if you're cutting with a team of editors or for a client.
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:11 PM   #213
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You've not seen the light _yet_, maybe you will, maybe you won't... who cares?

FCPX is the ****.

I.e. just try working with Red raw files on FCPX...
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Old May 23, 2013, 04:35 PM   #214
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i.e. just try working with Red raw files on FCPX...
Well that seals the deal right there!

I wouldn't touch RED RAW on anything other than a PC workstation if I wanted realtime with multiple streams.

Can't run FCPX on a PC.
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Old May 23, 2013, 06:31 PM   #215
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I wouldn't touch RED RAW on anything other than a PC workstation if I wanted realtime with multiple streams.
??? Even an iMac with FCPX handles red raw seamless and in realtime even on multiple tracks with great debayer quality...
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:55 PM   #216
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??? Even an iMac with FCPX handles red raw seamless and in realtime even on multiple tracks with great debayer quality...
It can't . . . . . . . not without the Red Rocket.

It can handle multiple streams of proxy files at 2k formatted in ProRes (half resolution) but what NLE can't?

Native 4k RED RAW seamlessly with a RED ROCKET? Any NLE works just fine.

Native 4k RED RAW seamlessly without a RED ROCKET on an iMac? Avid AMA them into your project and cut away. The preview will be at HD resolution though, and AMA has problems with large bins (from my personal experience) or wait for Media Composer 7.

Native 4k RED RAW seamlessly without a RED ROCKET on an iMac in FCPX? Not going to happen . . . . Dropped frame nightmare! Or you're going to have to create proxy files, which means you aren't cutting R3D files natively.

Other than that, you'll need a MacPro (which is GROSSLY DATED) a RED ROCKET at $5000, and a RAID solution that can handle the bandwidth.

And even this editor that describes the situation claims FCPX is missing some MAJOR features. He still loves it though and claims it's the future . . . . . . the same way others did back in 2003 . . . . . then we got a clue.

** just to keep things on topic **

The headless MacMini Pro would need an additional 4 PCI bays just to duplicate that. Not to mention the MacMini Pro, two displays, audio monitor, reference monitor and any other periph. A TOTAL mess.
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Old May 24, 2013, 07:23 AM   #217
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Sorry, but you are talking against better knowledge. Stop that.

FCPX handles .r3d files great natively with real time debayer, even on iMacs.

Maybe you are confusing editing with full resolution online conform and grading? Then you'll need a Rocket or two...

----------

At least we agree that anything less than the current MacPro is useless as a workstation. Actually the next one should be larger with more expansion ports. The problem with the current model is that an PCI expansion chasis is often neccesary.
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Old May 24, 2013, 10:40 AM   #218
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Sorry, but you are talking against better knowledge. Stop that.

FCPX handles .r3d files great natively with real time debayer, even on iMacs.

Maybe you are confusing editing with full resolution online conform and grading? Then you'll need a Rocket or two.
Links? Proof?

There are plenty of link to the contrary.
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Old May 25, 2013, 01:18 PM   #219
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eh... the proof is running at my and others post-production facilities every day...
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