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Old Jul 9, 2013, 11:24 AM   #51
tshrimp
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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
Warning: generalizations ahead.

Minorities tend to be poor
Poor people tend to not have ID for a whole host of reasons
Requiring ID to vote disenfranchises said ID-less voters.
Your statement "Minorities tend to be poor" - This can be taken the wrong way. There are many hard working successful minorities out there. Many of which I would assume are on this board.

You statement about "Poor people tend to not have ID...." I don't understand this. In the state I live in it is required by law that anyone over the age of 18 is required to have a photo ID on them at all times. So how does this "disenfranchise". The only people who would not have a photo ID would be someone who is here illegally, and they do not have the right to vote anyway as only legal citizens do.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 11:29 AM   #52
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That's what I don't get, you need an ID of some kind to do just about anything anymore. I don't see the fuss over needing an ID to vote. My 98 year old grandmother needs one to go to the bank.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 11:55 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
Your statement "Minorities tend to be poor" - This can be taken the wrong way. There are many hard working successful minorities out there. Many of which I would assume are on this board.

You statement about "Poor people tend to not have ID...." I don't understand this. In the state I live in it is required by law that anyone over the age of 18 is required to have a photo ID on them at all times. So how does this "disenfranchise". The only people who would not have a photo ID would be someone who is here illegally, and they do not have the right to vote anyway as only legal citizens do.

Whether or not there is a state law requiring that you carry ID, the fact of the matter is many don't have one. It's not only difficult for the poor, elderly and students to obtain state issues IDs, states that have enacted these laws certainly don't make it easy. They won't accept out of state driver's licenses but will accept an NRA card. How ****ing crazy is that? Many live very far from DMV offices (where these IDs are available) that are open 2 days a week. You have issues of obtaining copies of birth certificates (which are not cheap) or marriage licenses in the case of name changes when you don't live where you were born. These are but a few of the problems. The Brennan Center for Justice has a lot more on the subject.


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Ten states now have unprecedented restrictive voter ID laws. Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin all require citizens to produce specific types of government-issued photo identification before they can cast a vote that will count. Legal precedent requires these states to provide free photo ID to eligible voters who do not have one.

Unfortunately, these free IDs are not equally accessible to all voters. This report is the first comprehensive assessment of the difficulties that eligible voters face in obtaining free photo ID.

The 11 percent of eligible voters who lack the required photo ID must travel to a designated government office to obtain one. Yet many citizens will have trouble making this trip. In the 10 states with restrictive voter ID laws:

Nearly 500,000 eligible voters do not have access to a vehicle and live more than 10 miles from the nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. Many of them live in rural areas with dwindling public transportation options.

More than 10 million eligible voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest state ID-issuing office open more than two days a week.

1.2 million eligible black voters and 500,000 eligible Hispanic voters live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. People of color are more likely to be disenfranchised by these laws since they are less likely to have photo ID than the general population.

Many ID-issuing offices maintain limited business hours. For example, the office in Sauk City, Wisconsin is open only on the fifth Wednesday of any month. But only four months in 2012 — February, May, August, and October — have five Wednesdays. In other states — Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas — many part-time ID-issuing offices are in the rural regions with the highest concentrations of people of color and people in poverty.

More than 1 million eligible voters in these states fall below the federal poverty line and live more than 10 miles from their nearest ID-issuing office open more than two days a week. These voters may be particularly affected by the significant costs of the documentation required to obtain a photo ID. Birth certificates can cost between $8 and $25. Marriage licenses, required for married women whose birth certificates include a maiden name, can cost between $8 and $20. By comparison, the notorious poll tax — outlawed during the civil rights era — cost $10.64 in current dollars.

The result is plain: Voter ID laws will make it harder for hundreds of thousands of poor Americans to vote. They place a serious burden on a core constitutional right that should be universally available to every American citizen.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 12:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Whether or not there is a state law requiring that you carry ID, the fact of the matter is many don't have one. It's not only difficult for the poor, elderly and students to obtain state issues IDs, states that have enacted these laws certainly don't make it easy. They won't accept out of state driver's licenses but will accept an NRA card. How ****ing crazy is that? Many live very far from DMV offices (where these IDs are available) that are open 2 days a week. You have issues of obtaining copies of birth certificates (which are not cheap) or marriage licenses in the case of name changes when you don't live where you were born. These are but a few of the problems. The Brennan Center for Justice has a lot more on the subject.
So if obtaining a photo ID was made easy and provided free of charge then you would be all for requiring a photo ID to vote?
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 12:58 PM   #55
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 01:22 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
So if obtaining a photo ID was made easy and provided free of charge then you would be all for requiring a photo ID to vote?
I've said many times that I don't have a problem with voter ID as long as it's free and easy to obtain and not done close to an election. I'd want to see at least one state election having to occur before any voter ID law took effect to give people ample time and warning.

That said, it's a solution looking for a problem. The Republicans can't change the demographics so they have to resort to cheating. See voter ID, longer lines for minority voters, reduced voting hours, loss of weekend voting and other assorted gimmicks.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 02:28 PM   #57
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Considering that documented voter fraud is a non-issue why fix it if it ain't broke? Seems a bit fishy that reps scream about voter id but don't want to force employers to require proper ids to prevent hiring illegals. Something stinks in the state of denmark.
It is broke. There is voter fraud...unless ghost are allowed to vote. And it is the Republicans that DO want to force employers to have a check for legal status. Please provide a link where the democrats have been fighting to implement a more strict policy on hiring of illegal labor. I would love to be proven wrong on this one. If so you will see me get all over the Republicans and back the Dems on the issue of illegal hiring practices.

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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
I've said many times that I don't have a problem with voter ID as long as it's free and easy to obtain and not done close to an election. I'd want to see at least one state election having to occur before any voter ID law took effect to give people ample time and warning.

That said, it's a solution looking for a problem. The Republicans can't change the demographics so they have to resort to cheating. See voter ID, longer lines for minority voters, reduced voting hours, loss of weekend voting and other assorted gimmicks.
It looks to me that people against voter IDs are the ones that support "cheating". With IDs, illegal voting practices will be reduced. For some reason this has become about income, so I say lets take care of this for free so that is not an issue, and then we will have cleaner and more honest voting which I think everyone would want.

I had to show an ID to get my daughters ears pierced, but not to prove I am an eligible voter. Seems that without IDs we just ask for someone to be dishonest.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 02:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It looks to me that people against voter IDs are the ones that support "cheating". With IDs, illegal voting practices will be reduced. For some reason this has become about income, so I say lets take care of this for free so that is not an issue, and then we will have cleaner and more honest voting which I think everyone would want.

I had to show an ID to get my daughters ears pierced, but not to prove I am an eligible voter. Seems that without IDs we just ask for someone to be dishonest.

Seems to me it's the Republican controlled legislatures who have made voting more difficult in the last election. It's well documented.

As for voter fraud, it does exist except only Republicans are convicted of it. Odd.

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/...t-1533399.html
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 02:58 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It looks to me that people against voter IDs are the ones that support "cheating". With IDs, illegal voting practices will be reduced. For some reason this has become about income, so I say lets take care of this for free so that is not an issue, and then we will have cleaner and more honest voting which I think everyone would want.
Before starting yet another Big Government program, or expanding the purview of existing government bureaucracies, has anyone ever analyzed the prevalence of voter fraud? If the rate of fraud is well below the margins of victory, then exactly what problem is being solved here? The problems being added are fairly clear (difficulties for poor or infirm voters, costs borne by those voters, etc.). But exactly what is gained, except an increase in goverment workers needed to issue IDs?

Has anyone taken into account that requiring a government-issued voter ID just shifts the locus of fraud from the polling place to the ID issuer and ID checker? What safeguards would be added that decrease the incidence of fraud at the issuer? Extra training in recognizing fake birth certificates? What safeguards would be added that prevent fake IDs from being used at the polling place?

For example, if fraud at the polling place without IDs is 0.5%, yet fraud in obtaining IDs or use of complete fakes is 1%, then fraud goes up, not down, when IDs are required. (Those are randomly chosen example numbers, completely fictitious.)

I specifically mention fake IDs because fake driver's licenses are from being unobtainable. And I really doubt that poll workers would get the extra training, or have the experience needed, to identify a well-made fake.

Or maybe requiring IDs just increases the rate of fake birth certificates being used to issue real IDs. If the premise is faulty (birth certificate), then so are all its consequents (the voter ID, the vote itself).
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 03:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It is broke. There is voter fraud...unless ghost are allowed to vote.
Source?

Quote:
...It looks to me that people against voter IDs are the ones that support "cheating". With IDs, illegal voting practices will be reduced.
First, your attempt to clarify the "no-ID" argument as a cheer for fraud is disingenuous. To my knowledge, no one here supports voter fraud, however many remain unconvinced that there's is a problem and this argument is based on the evidence.

Additionally, there's no little supporting evidence that the requirement of a voter ID (or ID checks) have decreased voter fraud.

Third, the other tactics to disenfranchise voters (which arguably is more likely to bend the curve) are either supported outwardly by Republicans or are ignored.

The incidences of voter tampering—giving people the wrong date or address, sending out letters that claim officers will be checking for warrants, or eliminating polling locations in historically democratic neighborhoods—are ignored in exchange for the hollow spirit of voter fraud.

If I didn't know better, I would argue that Republicans are marking the cards and loading the dice while accusing everyone else of card counting.


Quote:
...I had to show an ID to get my daughters ears pierced, but not to prove I am an eligible voter. Seems that without IDs we just ask for someone to be dishonest.
Voter roles are the primary means of ID'ing voters. There's already a two-step process to evaluate voter eligibility. That's why you have to sign the sheet and why you have to register to vote.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 04:17 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Source?
It is on the news almost every election...And NOT even on Fox News. But googled it for you.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph..._people_voting

Example from the link:

"A study conducted by the Florida Sun Sentinel in late October 2008 found:

More than 65,000 ineligible and duplicate voters on Florida's registration rolls.
600 dead people on the list"


"Dallas County

Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters"


Those darn ghost should get their vote counted. We cannot allow the GOP suppress those ghosts rights.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 04:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It is on the news almost every election...And NOT even on Fox News. But googled it for you.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph..._people_voting

Example from the link:

"A study conducted by the Florida Sun Sentinel in late October 2008 found:

More than 65,000 ineligible and duplicate voters on Florida's registration rolls.
600 dead people on the list"


"Dallas County

Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters"


Those darn ghost should get their vote counted. We cannot allow the GOP suppress those ghosts rights.
Ok of those people who are dead how many of them voted? Or of those duplicated voters on the registration how many of them voted twice. Of the ineligible voters how many of them voted.
you should be able to find that information as we do store who votes. It is stored how often you vote.

Now given the fact that there has been no info or numbers of those duplicate voters or dead voters voting that tells us that it is a non issue or it is such a small number that it is a non issue. It is just fear mongering by the GOP with nothing based in fact.

So they are dead. It is not a big issue if they do not vote.
The voter ID laws put forth does NOTHING to attack the ineligible voters. It is voter suppression. Come one find me some real numbers. At a small handful it is not a big deal.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 04:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It is on the news almost every election...And NOT even on Fox News. But googled it for you.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph..._people_voting

Example from the link:

"A study conducted by the Florida Sun Sentinel in late October 2008 found:

More than 65,000 ineligible and duplicate voters on Florida's registration rolls.
600 dead people on the list"


"Dallas County

Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters"


Those darn ghost should get their vote counted. We cannot allow the GOP suppress those ghosts rights.

Seems your source makes the case better for no voter ID than it does for voter ID.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 04:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It is on the news almost every election...And NOT even on Fox News. But googled it for you....

A study conducted by the Florida Sun Sentinel in late October 2008 found:

...More than 65,000 ineligible and duplicate voters on Florida's registration rolls.
600 dead people on the list...
It's Florida, what's the rate of deaths in a given county? Does that 600 mean that the voter registration roll is hopelessly outdated or that it takes some time between the death of a person and their elimination from the roll?

There are 600 dead people on the registration roll, but how many of them voted?

Quote:
...Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters.
Yes, dead people exist on the voter registration rolls, but your claim goes much further. You must prove that people use those identities to vote and do so at a number that can subvert elections.

It's notable that the article mentions identify theft, which is arguably how people voted and is a problem that won't be solved by required identification cards since largely the identify thief has already done so.

Moreover, from the Texas Watchdog article quoted by Ballotpedia:

Quote:
...In one case identified by Texas Watchdog, a poll worker's mistake may have led to a faulty record.

John Medford said there must have been a mix-up when he was told his father -– who died in 2006 –- had voted in the March Democratic primary.

They lived at the same Neff Street address. They shared their name: John Curtis Medford. But the father was born in 1917, the son in 1951.

“My mom and I voted. That’s all I know,” Medford said. But the younger Medford didn’t vote, records show.

Poll workers apparently recorded the father as showing up to the polls, not the son.
So, at least one case was just the simple mistake of a poll worker and not voting fraud, nor something that would be solved by voter IDs.

Quote:
...Those darn ghost should get their vote counted. We cannot allow the GOP suppress those ghosts rights.
Paging Dr. Straw Man. Dr. Straw Man. Please report to the voting fraud thread. Oh wait, he's already here since your last attempt at building easy arguments to knock down.
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Old Jul 9, 2013, 08:19 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshrimp View Post
It is on the news almost every election...And NOT even on Fox News. But googled it for you.

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph..._people_voting

Example from the link:

"A study conducted by the Florida Sun Sentinel in late October 2008 found:

More than 65,000 ineligible and duplicate voters on Florida's registration rolls.
600 dead people on the list"


"Dallas County

Melvin Porter, although he died in January 2007, cast a vote in the March 4, 2008 Democratic primary in Dallas County. A subsequent investigation by Texas Watchdog turned up the names of 6,000 dead voters on the Dallas County list of registered voters"


Those darn ghost should get their vote counted. We cannot allow the GOP suppress those ghosts rights.
Do you even read? Registered voter does not equal voter . Also, if dead voter fraud is so prevalent, why did they only provide one example?
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Old Jul 10, 2013, 04:04 PM   #66
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Forget about voter fraud, this is simply an attempt to keep power from shifting to the majority in a extremely unpatriotic undemocratic way.
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Old Jul 10, 2013, 04:59 PM   #67
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Do you even read? Registered voter does not equal voter . Also, if dead voter fraud is so prevalent, why did they only provide one example?
Ummmm Yes I read. Did you?

"..Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave,..."

"..... and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave...."

----------

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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post

Paging Dr. Straw Man. Dr. Straw Man. Please report to the voting fraud thread. Oh wait, he's already here since your last attempt at building easy arguments to knock down.
Darn...He said "Straw Man"...Now I know I must be wrong. If you add " 'nuff said". You will really show me the error of my ways.

-----------------------------------

I admit I am surprised that people do not think voter fraud is an issue. I bet some sang a different tune during the hanging chad days.

Link on Voter Fraud...

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/11/0...han-you-think/

"Indeed, a 2012 Rasmussen poll found 64 percent of Americans think voter fraud is “very” or “somewhat” serious. African-Americans (64 percent) and those earning under $20,000 a year (71 percent) agreed."

Last edited by tshrimp; Jul 10, 2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old Jul 10, 2013, 05:15 PM   #68
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Ummmm Yes I read. Did you?

"..Dozens have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave,..."

"..... and that as many as 2,600 of them had cast votes from the grave...."
From the article...

Quote:
...And dozens of those people, like Linda Hill, have apparently cast ballots from beyond the grave, records since 2004 show. One expert says the number of deceased names used to cast ballots may be higher than what Texas Watchdog's analysis found.
There may be "dozens" of cases of voter fraud in Harris County, Texas, where more than 4 million people live, from 2004-2008. Okay, that's a good reason to ensure the voter roll is accurate, but voter ID won't solve this problem.

Let's think about this for a moment. In a huge, populous county there are mistakes in the roll (as I noted earlier) or a number of cases of voter fraud and your response is to require voter ID.

Though, further down in the same article, "That's as officials in at least six states may have improperly removed tens of thousands of voters from the rolls or prevented them from registering..."

Which is the problem again?

Quote:
...Darn...He said "Straw Man"...Now I know I must be wrong. If you add " 'nuff said". You will really show me the error of my ways.
If you think a lame rhetorical fallacy is effective, I guess I can't convince you otherwise, but if you actually want to have a debate about something, put the scarecrow down.

EDIT:

Quote:
...Indeed, a 2012 Rasmussen poll found 64 percent of Americans think voter fraud is “very” or “somewhat” serious. African-Americans (64 percent) and those earning under $20,000 a year (71 percent) agreed."
Oh, good. You've switched rhetorical tactics, now we're doing argumentum ad populum. I'm hoping for argumentum ad absurdum next.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 05:53 PM   #69
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From the "Decline of North Carolina," an editorial in the New York Times:

Quote:
...And, naturally, the Legislature is rushing to impose voter ID requirements and cut back on early voting and Sunday voting, which have been popular among Democratic voters. One particularly transparent move would end a tax deduction for dependents if students vote at college instead of their hometowns, a blatant effort to reduce Democratic voting strength in college towns like Chapel Hill and Durham.
This is the fundamental problem that I referred to earlier. Republicans are pushing hard for voter ID citing huge fraud problems, when those problems are statistically insignificant, while simultaneously trying to restrict legal voters by closing polling places and raising taxes on parents if their kids vote in the wrong location.

It's important to note that voter fraud is easier and more dangerous if fewer people vote, and yet that's the strategy from Republicans, decrease the number of voters.
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Old Jul 11, 2013, 06:33 PM   #70
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From the "Decline of North Carolina," an editorial in the New York Times:



This is the fundamental problem that I referred to earlier. Republicans are pushing hard for voter ID citing huge fraud problems, when those problems are statistically insignificant, while simultaneously trying to restrict legal voters by closing polling places and raising taxes on parents if their kids vote in the wrong location.

It's important to note that voter fraud is easier and more dangerous if fewer people vote, and yet that's the strategy from Republicans, decrease the number of voters.
^^^^This this this.

It's just so blatantly obvious, I don't know how any honest person could spin these initiatives as "honest".
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Old Jul 27, 2013, 06:22 PM   #71
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"I told you so" -- some states rushing to limit voting rights

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In the month since the Supreme Court struck down the pre-clearance formula of the Voting Rights Act, Texas, Florida and North Carolina are working on rules designed to make it harder to vote. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who wrote the dissent in Shelby County v. Holder, is not surprised. "I didn't want to be right, but sadly I am," she told the Associated Press' Mark Sherman.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/polit...hts-act/67655/

Details follow regarding North Carolina, Florida, and Texas. Texas takes the crazy cake on this one:

"Immediately after the Shelby County v. Holder decision, Texas announced it would go though with a voter ID law that was passed in 2011 but blocked by the Justice Department. The law requires a state-issued ID to vote (notably, a concealed-carry permit counts.)"


Quote:
We should have seen this coming, the Supreme Court justice says. "The notion that because the Voting Rights Act had been so tremendously effective we had to stop it didn't make any sense to me," Ginsburg says. "And one really could have predicted what was going to happen."
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Old Jul 28, 2013, 06:29 AM   #72
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Absolutely disgusting that these states are rushing to enact these laws after they were ruled unconstitutional a short time ago. The North Carolina law is the most egregious one I have ever seen.

Holder is already going after Texas. I'm sure NC isn't far behind.

Here's most of what's in the NC law.

Quote:
Here are the details of everything bad about the ball, via North Carolina Policy Watch. It’s a very long list:

 The end of pre-registration for 16 & 17 year olds

 A ban on paid voter registration drives

 Elimination of same day voter registration

 A provision allowing voters to be challenged by any registered voter of the county in which they vote rather than just their precinct

 A week sliced off Early Voting

 Elimination of straight party ticket voting

 A provision making the state’s presidential primary date a function of the primary date in South Carolina

 A provision calling for a study (rather than a mandate) of electronic candidate filing

 An increase in the maximum campaign contribution to $5,000 (the limit will continue to increase every two years with the Consumer Price Index from the Bureau of Labor Statistics)

 A provision weakening disclosure requirements for ”independent expenditure” committees

 Authorization of vigilante poll observers, lots of them, with expanded range of interference

 An expansion of the scope of who may examine registration records and challenge voters

 A repeal of out-of-precinct voting

 A repeal of the current mandate for high-school registration drives

 Elimination of flexibility in opening early voting sites at different hours within a county

 A provision making it more difficult to add satellite polling sites for the elderly or voters with disabilities

 New limits on who can assist a voter adjudicated to be incompetent by court

 The repeal of three public financing programs

 The repeal of disclosure requirements under “candidate specific communications.”
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