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Old May 21, 2013, 09:53 PM   #101
DUCKofD3ATH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
I'm making claims based on the non-stop reporting that Fox News (and others) have been doing. Here's a good summary because it's clear you haven't been paying attention. Huffington Post (I picked this one because it talks about the possible incompetence)

I just read it, and it does appear that there are things we certainly could do better, but I see nothing anyone in Washington could have done differently. The most telling fact is that the GOP Reps on the committee are only interested in questioning whether there was a cover-up, not whether there was some errors in planning, responding, or even in pre-event security.

It's not like there was some memo from a short period of time before this attack that said something like "Bin Laden plans on flying planes into buildings." There is no "Extremists are planning to raid a US Outpost/CIA substation Memo."

(edit) If you don't think my claims are true, I'm guessing it would be very easy to contradict them with claims of your own. You don't because you can't!
Ahem, you said:

Quote:
The testimony, and even the admissions of the people on the right, are that the security and efforts undertaken by the administration, military, state department, etc. were all that could be done.

There has been NO testimony that any efforts that could have been taken weren't taken.!
You're remarkably uninformed:

Quote:
Rescue team told to stand down in Benghazi "were furious," says Hicks
May 8, 2013 11:49 AM

Greg Hicks, former deputy chief of mission in Libya, told the House Oversight Committee that a second team of U.S. special forces ready to deploy to Benghazi the night of an attack there on a U.S. consulate was told to stand down.
CBS News

So there goes your "NO testimony that any efforts that could have been taken weren't taken" wouldn't you say?

Also, I await your sources citing "admissions of the people on the right, are that the security and efforts undertaken by the administration, military, state department, etc. were all that could be done."

The rules here are very clear, you can't make ridiculous claims without backing them up with facts.
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Old May 22, 2013, 11:57 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
You're remarkably uninformed:

CBS News

So there goes your "NO testimony that any efforts that could have been taken weren't taken" wouldn't you say?
Actually, the testimony you are referring to is the second commando unit that deployed to Sigonella, but were told to stand down. They arrived in the area AFTER the attack was already over.

There were no efforts that I am aware of that could have been done that were not done. The whistleblower whose testimony you referenced may have been able to get people there on time had he answered his phone instead of ignoring repeated calls for help.

Quote:
Also, I await your sources citing "admissions of the people on the right, are that the security and efforts undertaken by the administration, military, state department, etc. were all that could be done."

The rules here are very clear, you can't make ridiculous claims without backing them up with facts.
The Benghazi hearings have focused on the supposed coverup that this was a terrorist event and not a video. The GOP has focused its attention on whether the state department or white house manipulated the talking points.

There have been repeated statements by those on the right that that is the problem, not some unsupported allegation that the administration knowingly and willfully left these people to die. I would expect the investigations to hit on everything, but those on the right have been pretty clear what their objective is.

(edit) The only substantive thing I see in the preliminary reports from the five house committees is that there were drawdowns in security at these facilities, but that's been repeated in the press, and every single time it is mentioned, they point out that the Republican congress slashed State Department security funding.
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Old May 22, 2013, 11:14 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
Actually, the testimony you are referring to is the second commando unit that deployed to Sigonella, but were told to stand down. They arrived in the area AFTER the attack was already over.
Because they were told to stand down! Sheesh! If the jets Hicks had requested had been sent, the attack could have been stalled until the Spec Ops team arrived.

By the way, did you know that the cause of Chris Steven's death still hasn't been released? If he really died of smoke inhalation, why wouldn't the administration let the public know. More likely, they're hiding the results, because it was bad enough that Obama's incompetence let al Qaeda overrun our consulate, it would be far worse if the initial reports that Stevens was raped to death proved to be true.

Quote:
There were no efforts that I am aware of that could have been done that were not done. The whistleblower whose testimony you referenced may have been able to get people there on time had he answered his phone instead of ignoring repeated calls for help.
That makes no sense, and I'm fed up with you making outlandish claims without proof. Either substantiate your claims or I'm taking it to the Mods.

Quote:
The Benghazi hearings have focused on the supposed coverup that this was a terrorist event and not a video. The GOP has focused its attention on whether the state department or white house manipulated the talking points.
I guess you never heard of the independent review board conclusions:

The month after Obama was re-elected, an independent review board issued its harsh verdict.

Senior officials in Washington had failed to protect the Benghazi mission, even after diplomats in Libya asked for more security, said the panel appointed by the State Department.

Since the overthrow of dictator Moammar Gadhafi, eastern Libya has been plagued by violence and awash with heavily armed militias. The U.S. compound as well as British diplomats and the Red Cross had been targeted by explosives in smaller attacks several times over the spring and summer.

The danger was obvious.

And yet security was "inadequate for Benghazi and grossly inadequate to deal with the attack that took place," the Accountability Review Board concluded.

Four State Department officials were reassigned or resigned as a result.

"We clearly fell down on the job with regard to Benghazi," Deputy Secretary of State William Burns told lawmakers.


Benghazi: Why the issue keeps coming back

<snip>

Quote:
(edit) The only substantive thing I see in the preliminary reports from the five house committees is that there were drawdowns in security at these facilities, but that's been repeated in the press, and every single time it is mentioned, they point out that the Republican congress slashed State Department security funding.
I just gave you more proof that Obama's incompetence led to the deaths of our consular staff. But why does the Republicans yanking 300 million out of 2.6 billion in security exonerate Obama? If they didn't think they had enough money to protect our ambassador, it would have been criminal to send him in anyway.
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Old May 23, 2013, 08:35 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
If he really died of smoke inhalation, why wouldn't the administration let the public know. More likely, they're hiding the results, because it was bad enough that Obama's incompetence let al Qaeda overrun our consulate, it would be far worse if the initial reports that Stevens was raped to death proved to be true.



That makes no sense, and I'm fed up with you making outlandish claims without proof. Either substantiate your claims or I'm taking it to the Mods.
You were talking to yourself here weren't you?

To the underlined: Of course, Obama really shouldn't have left his post at the gates of that embassy. Just the fact he wasn't standing guard at the time of the attack really shows his incompetence.
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Old May 23, 2013, 08:47 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
You were talking to yourself here weren't you?
Taking what I said out of context to make a lame jab? Given that I source my arguments and mcrain doesn't, such dishonesty is especially sad.

<edit> Ah, I see. Good point. I sourced the rumors about Stevens' death on a different thread. Here it is again:

Quote:
The Arabic language website known as Lebanon News (Tayar.org) has just reported the horrific claim that the heavily armed mob responsible for the murder of U.S. Ambassador to Libya, J. Christopher Stevens, 52, actually raped him before he was killed.
Examiner.com

As for the cause of Steven's death, I can't source that because it hasn't been released, even though he was killed last September!

Last edited by DUCKofD3ATH; May 23, 2013 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Correcting the record
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Old May 23, 2013, 09:07 AM   #106
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Yeah, I've changed my mind on this topic. At first I thought that, outside the personal tragedy involved, this was a big fat nothingburger.

Now I realize it's what the GOP plans to impale themselves upon in front of the nation and the world as they overreach in their attempt to deal political damage to a loathed Democratic POTUS. (Edit: loathed, and never considered a legitimate POTUS in the first place).

And while we've heard this song before, I only have two words for the GOP: Please, proceed.
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Old May 23, 2013, 09:13 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Taking what I said out of context to make a lame jab? Given that I source my arguments and mcrain doesn't, such dishonesty is especially sad.

<edit> Ah, I see. Good point. I sourced the rumors about Stevens' death on a different thread. Here it is again:



Examiner.com

As for the cause of Steven's death, I can't source that because it hasn't been released, even though he was killed last September!
But you sure as hell can can make the claim that it was nefarious in that vacuum eh?

Practice what you preach.
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:29 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by NT1440 View Post
But you sure as hell can can make the claim that it was nefarious in that vacuum eh?

Practice what you preach.
I'm expressing an educated opinion based on the facts at hand.

Go ahead, tell us why the Obama administration hasn't released the cause of Stevens' death, eight months after it occurred.
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:31 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Because they were told to stand down! Sheesh! If the jets Hicks had requested had been sent, the attack could have been stalled until the Spec Ops team arrived.
Hicks failed to respond to calls, then claims he called in jets to do what? Bomb the US consulate? This was an urban attack by individuals in an environment where US personnel were interspersed with attackers. This wasn't a battlefield, and it sure as hell wasn't a situation where jets could have strafed or bombed the area to give the US personnel relief. What planet are you on that you think a jet flying at subsonic speeds can manage to pick off enemy combatants with a gatling gun or a bomb without risking the lives of innocent civilians, US personnel or the sovereign power of the country they would have been invading?

You haven't thought this through have you?

Quote:
By the way, did you know that the cause of Chris Steven's death still hasn't been released? If he really died of smoke inhalation, why wouldn't the administration let the public know. More likely, they're hiding the results, because it was bad enough that Obama's incompetence let al Qaeda overrun our consulate, it would be far worse if the initial reports that Stevens was raped to death proved to be true.
Do you honestly think a bunch of religious extremists would actually drop trow to diddle another man to death? Come on. I don't believe any religioius extremist, no matter how sick, twisted, or conservative would do that.

Quote:
That makes no sense, and I'm fed up with you making outlandish claims without proof. Either substantiate your claims or I'm taking it to the Mods.
Oh, so it's ok for you to claim massive coverup and raped to death, but I reference actual testimony and you're going to report me to the mods? Good luck with that. Why don't you get your thumb out of your butt and cite your claims?

Quote:
Ahead of his testimony, Pentagon officials said the planes and troops to carry out a rescue mission were not immediately available in the region, and would not have arrived in time to make a difference.

"The fact remains, U.S. forces could not have arrived in time," said George Little, the chief Pentagon spokesman.

Special operators were pressing to go to Behghazi, but the military's Africa Command denied the request.

"It made sense that these guys wanted to go to where the action was," but they were told that "you guys going to Benghazi are not going to be helpful," said Marine Col. Dave Lapan, the spokesman for Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Lapan added that "we have no evidence that they could have arrived in Benghazi in time" to affect the outcome. NYDN
Quote:
Toensing told WND the State Department has been telling reporters that U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens could not reach Hicks by telephone on the night he was killed in the terrorist attack, Sept. 11, 2012, because Hicks was relaxing, watching television, and did not have his telephone with him.

“This is a total fabrication,” Toensing charged. “Telephone reception in Libya is notoriously unreliable. Sometimes you just don’t get your calls. And besides, the record will show Hicks reached Stevens by telephone within five or 10 minutes at the most after Stevens first telephoned him.”

Toensing said several reporters, whom she declined to identify, have called her to ask if the story about Hicks being AWOL at the time of the Benghazi attack was true.
So, some have speculated that this is a smear campaign against Hicks, but it's clear he wasn't reached for 5-10 minutes, and there are allegations he was screening his calls. Regardless, the military has provided testimony that this state department official's opinions about what was militarily possible wasn't true.

You probably should report me to the mods for actually making statements that are demonstrably true. On the other hand, where are your cites? Or, do you not have any?

Quote:
I guess you never heard of the independent review board conclusions:

The month after Obama was re-elected, an independent review board issued its harsh verdict.

Senior officials in Washington had failed to protect the Benghazi mission, even after diplomats in Libya asked for more security, said the panel appointed by the State Department.

Since the overthrow of dictator Moammar Gadhafi, eastern Libya has been plagued by violence and awash with heavily armed militias. The U.S. compound as well as British diplomats and the Red Cross had been targeted by explosives in smaller attacks several times over the spring and summer.

The danger was obvious.

And yet security was "inadequate for Benghazi and grossly inadequate to deal with the attack that took place," the Accountability Review Board concluded.

Four State Department officials were reassigned or resigned as a result.

"We clearly fell down on the job with regard to Benghazi," Deputy Secretary of State William Burns told lawmakers.
It sure would have been easier to defend that mission had the GOP not slashed the State Department's security funding. However, they actually did, and the State Department had to prioritize its funding of security for embassies and US government efforts overseas! The "consulate" that was attacked was a CIA substation, so it was meant to be flying under the radar.

Quote:
I just gave you more proof that Obama's incompetence led to the deaths of our consular staff. But why does the Republicans yanking 300 million out of 2.6 billion in security exonerate Obama? If they didn't think they had enough money to protect our ambassador, it would have been criminal to send him in anyway.
Well, that's an interesting spin. The GOP cuts 1/7th of the funding for embassies all over the entire world, and then the state department is forced to make decisions that reduce the security of our personnel overseas, and you say that the white house is somehow incompetent. That's a stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Taking what I said out of context to make a lame jab? Given that I source my arguments and mcrain doesn't, such dishonesty is especially sad.
Every claim I have made is backed by testimony, not right-wing loony toons conspiracy theories. Yes, Hicks has his opinions, but he was also demoted, so he's probably not the most reliable guy. Even if he were, the military testimony is far more appropriate when it comes to what could have been done vs. what could not. The only thing Hicks testimony seems to be useful for, and the GOP is salivating over, is his claim that they knew it was a terrorist attack vs. related to a video. A faux controversy if I've ever seen one.
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Old May 23, 2013, 10:38 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
What planet are you on that you think a jet flying at subsonic speeds can manage to pick off enemy combatants with a gatling gun or a bomb without risking the lives of innocent civilians, US personnel or the sovereign power of the country they would have been invading?

You haven't thought this through have you?
I'm sure he has.

I'm sure he's fine with the U.S. invading and bombing any country it damn well wants.

America, **** Yeah!

Where was Team America when we needed it?



Quote:
America
America

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Comin' again to save the mother****in' day, Yeah

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Terrorists, you're game is through
''cause now you have ta answer to

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So lick my butt and suck on my balls

America, **** Yeah!
Whatcha' gonna do when we come for you now

It's the dream that we all share
It's the hope for tomorrow
(**** Yeah!)

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http://www.metrolyrics.com/america-*...ey-parker.html
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Old May 23, 2013, 01:59 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post

Well, that's an interesting spin. The GOP cuts 1/7th of the funding for embassies all over the entire world, and then the state department is forced to make decisions that reduce the security of our personnel overseas, and you say that the white house is somehow incompetent. That's a stretch.


Not only is Obama incompetent, he masterminded all these scandals too.
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Old May 23, 2013, 02:14 PM   #112
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Not only is Obama incompetent, he masterminded all these scandals too.
He pushed the Rs into a corner, penned them in, they did what they had to do, as any large, trapped ungulate would.
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