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Old Jun 23, 2013, 03:37 PM   #26
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Do parse the sexism out of these, then:
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
Not that it was anything unusual at the time, of course, but one would expect the Word of God™ to be a little less ephemeral.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 03:43 PM   #27
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but that they are to be treated like you would something fragile.
Treating a women like something fragile sounds incredibly misogynistic.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 03:56 PM   #28
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Treating a women like something fragile sounds incredibly misogynistic.
Well I can't speak to your interpretations of anything, but treating people, regardless of the sex, with care doesn't sound misogynistic to me at all. It just sounds like what decent people do.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 04:21 PM   #29
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Treating a women like something fragile sounds incredibly misogynistic.
Patronising, maybe, but "incredibly mysogynistic" is overstating the case.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 05:01 PM   #30
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The bible was written how many thousand years ago? We have moved on and hopefully learnt something about what equality of the sexes is. People were sexist in the past, but lets hope we today are not.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 05:20 PM   #31
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Wow...a website that is trying to make their name on the back of sexism only pulling part of the story in order to enhance their point. Whowouldathunkit?
Trying to "make their name on the back of sexism"? It's called calling a spade a spade, pal.

Absolutely nothing you posted has refuted this:

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Originally Posted by steve knight
but overall Christianity puts woman lower then men.
Sure, you made those passages a bit less brutal and nasty by continuing them, but they still 100% absolutely put women below men (i.e. subservient to).

Treating a woman as "something fragile" is an entirely sexist attitude, not a chivalrous one. I know you can't see it, it's just how you were raised.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 05:23 PM   #32
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The bible was written how many thousand years ago? We have moved on and hopefully learnt something about what equality of the sexes is. People were sexist in the past, but lets hope we today are not.
Dream on. There's a very long way to go.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 09:34 PM   #33
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The bible was written how many thousand years ago? We have moved on and hopefully learnt something about what equality of the sexes is. People were sexist in the past, but lets hope we today are not.
As were the sacred texts of a number of the world's great religions. Most of them devote an inordinate amount of space and thought to reiterating their view of the universe, a perspective which invariably sees women as subordinate. The problem is that by citing texts considered sacred to articulate a world view where some humans, the female half, are regarded, by definition, as subordinate, and therefore relegated to a role divinely defined as as of lesser worth and importance, religion has been used to reinforce a situation where women, in large tracts of the world do not enjoy equal rights, and, in some parts of the world, enjoy hardly any rights whatsoever.

Unfortunately, the sexism which you may hope has been put behind us remains a potent force still; while, often, the expression of such prejudices is unconscious, it is still deeply felt and powerfully expressed.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 07:31 AM   #34
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How many female priests and popes have there been?

Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Leviticus 27:3-7: "And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver... And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels. And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels. And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels."

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Peter 3:1-6
Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord.

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.


There's hundreds more passages.

Edit: Oops, repeats. I missed Skunk's post.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 08:06 AM   #35
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I was staying with the NT. Finding misogynistic rants from the OT is too easy, like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:25 AM   #36
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100% of married men are abused. Maybe that's why gay marriage is gaining steam. Grass might be greener.
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 02:50 PM   #37
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100% of married men are abused.
I feel sorry for you that the people you know have such unsatisfactory marriages .
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:47 PM   #38
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100% of married men are abused.
Where the hell did that come from?
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Old Jun 25, 2013, 03:54 PM   #39
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Where the hell did that come from?
Either a painfully feeble attempt at humor, or and even more painfully twisted life view.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 06:23 AM   #40
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100% of married men are abused......
Gosh. I won't say that words fail me, because they don't, but I will say that to my mind this is a particularly pathetic contribution, a truly trite, clueless, vapid, witless, post. It is firstly, irrelevant, and worse, secondly, it is untrue, intellectually lazy and flippantly dishonest. Moreover, it contributes absolutely nothing to the thread or discussion except the usual dismissive patronising tone whenever topics such as domestic abuse are raised.

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Where the hell did that come from?
Indeed, yes. I wondered about that myself.

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Either a painfully feeble attempt at humor, or and even more painfully twisted life view.
Agree absolutely.
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Old Jun 26, 2013, 06:27 AM   #41
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Back on topic... That statistic is horrifying. What are *realistic* ways we could address this problem and start to make a change, even if it's gradual?
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Old Oct 27, 2013, 06:08 PM   #42
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The thread was posted to discuss domestic abuse against women. I don't deny that abuse against men occurs, too, but the point of the thread was to draw attention to a staggering and profoundly disturbing statistic whereby one third - at least - of one half of the population suffer violence on a regular basis.

Actually, I find it rather telling that the first post to respond highlighted domestic abuse against men; this is akin to Hollywood making movies such as 'Fatal Attraction', or 'Play Misty For Me', or 'Misery', highlighting the fact that deranged women exist who behave like insane predators, but completely missing the point, which is that in the vast majority of stalking cases, or harassment cases, or cases where individuals are locked up in cellars for months, or years, women are the victims not the perpetrators.

Frankly, domestic abuse does not happen to the sexes equally; more women get assaulted. And when such assault occurs, the consequences, physical and otherwise, for women tend to be worse.



Sorry, again, the thread is about violence against women, not the deprivation of rights that male circumcision actually is. Now, if you had discussed female circumcision, as widely practised - still - to this day across vast swathes of Africa - (and not, granted, the US) I would have agreed with you.

Re the a number of points made elsewhere in the thread, I think it is beyond doubt that organised religion has had a disproportionate influence in promoting the subjugation of women; oppression dressed up as divine opinion is especially seductive to religious leaders, and I never cease to be amazed at the thought, space (in texts deemed sacred), energy, effort, and sheer vitriolic passion many of the world's leading religions put into defining, describing and enforcing the subordinate position of women, not to mention their endless attempt to control female sexuality and limit female reproductive choices.
Where female circumcision is practiced in Africa, it is widely accepted among women, and women tend to organize female circumcision events.

It is amazing to me that in the US there is so much activism against female circumcision when it doesn't even exist in this country. We are judging other countries based on what they do, but we cannot see that we do the exact same thing.
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 02:34 AM   #43
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Where female circumcision is practiced in Africa, it is widely accepted among women, and women tend to organize female circumcision events.
Sounds like Stockholm syndrome. Having your clitorus cut off hardly sounds good.
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 03:00 AM   #44
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Sounds like Stockholm syndrome. Having your clitorus cut off hardly sounds good.
I think there is something in that idea.

I remember all to well back in the 1960's a talk program on the TV. It was about the pill, and the wearing of the then scandalous mini skirt. The fact that abortion was being made legal, and that young women were starting careers, and not just a part time job.

What shocked me back then was the majority of the people in the audience that were opposed to all of this were nearly all older women. The discussion got quite heated, and the the commentator called for silence.

As the audience fell silent, a middle aged woman stood up and shouted, her voice filled with hate and spitefulness, "I didn't have a good life, why should you".
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 04:03 AM   #45
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Sounds like Stockholm syndrome. Having your clitorus cut off hardly sounds good.
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I think there is something in that idea.

I remember all to well back in the 1960's a talk program on the TV. It was about the pill, and the wearing of the then scandalous mini skirt. The fact that abortion was being made legal, and that young women were starting careers, and not just a part time job.

What shocked me back then was the majority of the people in the audience that were opposed to all of this were nearly all older women. The discussion got quite heated, and the the commentator called for silence.

As the audience fell silent, a middle aged woman stood up and shouted, her voice filled with hate and spitefulness, "I didn't have a good life, why should you".
I think both these comments are very insightful and are also at the heart of male circumcision. It's very hard to want something you didn't have for the next generation. If you want that, you have to admit you got a raw deal. I think with circumcision you have to lean into the idea of it, if you want to feel OK about yourself. That's why it's easier for us to attack people who do something we don't do, than to attack ourselves.
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 04:14 AM   #46
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If the report is true, then it is pretty horrific.
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Old Oct 28, 2013, 05:00 AM   #47
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I think both these comments are very insightful and are also at the heart of male circumcision. It's very hard to want something you didn't have for the next generation. If you want that, you have to admit you got a raw deal. I think with circumcision you have to lean into the idea of it, if you want to feel OK about yourself. That's why it's easier for us to attack people who do something we don't do, than to attack ourselves.
I don't think that levels of domestic abuse in Africa are significantly lower than they are in the US and other similar countries.

Secondly to be fair women haven't spoken out on domestic violence, so it has been difficult to work out how widespread it truly is in a coherent way. Many other problems have had more robust statistics behind them.
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