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Old Aug 27, 2013, 04:44 PM   #76
DUCKofD3ATH
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
I'm not clear what being Christian had to do with the "contributions to this exceptional nation."
Seems straightforward. What part are you having difficulty with?

Quote:
Actually, what contributions solely attributable to Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) have been made to this exceptional nation.
Are you saying that Christians don't make a contribution?

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I guess I don't get the part that Christianity played in these contributions to this exceptional nation.
I can tell. Let's reason together and maybe you'll get it.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 04:46 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Are you saying that Christians don't make a contribution?
No, he is asking whether their religious beliefs had anything to do with those contributions?
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 04:57 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
When did I ever say that I hated all Christians? All I am saying is that extremism is not exclusive to Muslims.
Hmmm. This isn't the way you'd refer to them if you liked them, is it?:
No, Christians just spend every single day screaming it out on conservative radio, TV shows, and various houses of government throughout the United States. Not to mention the endless picketing of abortion clinics and protests whenever a new mosque is built.
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The only difference is that Christianity dominates in this country, and people aren't going to blame the whole religion when it is their own.
Due to their nature, religions attract the insane along with normal people, so yes there are dangerous Christians as there are dangerous Jews and Muslims. But I spent a couple years in Saudi Arabia--until you've seen a guy get lashed for discussing evolution with a Muslim, you have no idea how extreme the ordinary Muslims are. (Of course, this is anecdotal and not actual evidence, so you can accept or ignore it as you please.)

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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
No, he is asking whether their religious beliefs had anything to do with those contributions?
Who knows? All we know is that this nation is exceptional and for most of its history Christians have comprised about 80% of the population.

One can speculate that the Christian religion has qualities that it imparts on its believers enabling them to make a great nation.

Last edited by DUCKofD3ATH; Aug 27, 2013 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Typo patrol.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 05:12 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Seems straightforward. What part are you having difficulty with?
Are you saying that Christians don't make a contribution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
No, he is asking whether their religious beliefs had anything to do with those contributions?
I thought my question was clear. You edited my post, leaving out the clear question, which APlotdevice very nicely and succinctly re-stated for me.

Thanks, APlotdevice, for understanding my point!
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 05:18 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Hmmm. This isn't the way you'd refer to them if you liked them, is it?:
No, Christians just spend every single day screaming it out on conservative radio, TV shows, and various houses of government throughout the United States. Not to mention the endless picketing of abortion clinics and protests whenever a new mosque is built.
I do not like OR dislike Christians. I do not care about Christianity. It's just another silly set of traditions and superstitions like every religion. And just like every other religion, its followers vary widely in their attitudes and beliefs. My statement quite obviously in reference to the extremists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Religions attract the insane, so yes there are dangerous Christians as there are dangerous Jews and Muslims. But I spent a couple years in Saudi Arabia--until you've seen a guy get lashed for discussing evolution with a Muslim, you have no idea how extreme the ordinary Muslims are. (Of course, this is anecdote and not actual evidence, so you can accept or ignore it as you please.)
Yes, and look back a few centuries and you will see exactly the same behavior from Christians. The fact that it remains an issue in the Middle East today says less about the Islamic Faith and more about the complicated history of that region. For instance the Taliban came into power in Afghanistan as a direct result of the US's anti-soviet policy.
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Last edited by APlotdevice; Aug 27, 2013 at 05:30 PM.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 05:31 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
If you provide reputable cites, I'll read your posting. Not until then.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0720-14.htm

No bid contracts to companies linked to the Bush family and white house.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7634313/ns...md-found-iraq/

No WMD's of any type found in Iraq.

http://readersupportednews.org/news-...on-on-iraq-war

It's just a coincidence that a Bush White house linked company profited billions from Iraq, with many of the contracts being no bid?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Jun16.html

No connection was ever found with pre 9/11 roisterer cells and anyone or anything in Iraq.

http://antiwar.com/casualties/

Over 100,000 killed.

Yeah, what was the point of Iraq again?

----------

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Originally Posted by TheAppleFairy View Post
People forgot about the democrats right before Bush that were pushing the same exact thing.

YouTube: video
Indeed, the democrats were stupid enough to buy all that crap. Thankfully most countries did not, and did not follow the US into Iraq.

----------

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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
I'm an atheist, yet I respect the contributions Christians have made to this exceptional nation. Why do you hate them so?
1: America is no longer an expectational nation, it used to be. It used to be the envy of the world. It no longer is. Massive rising costs of living, rising cost of education, failing healthcare system, crumbling infrastructure, roads, bridges, water systems, sewer systems, schools, Airports, power grid, ect, massive wealth inequality, no nationwide high speed transit system, massive outsourcing, middle class is going away, and slipping education system.

America was once the envy of the world, but it is not anymore. In the next 15-20 years. Europe and Asia will be leaving the US Behind. And it will turn into a 3rd world country.

2: Who care about someone's faith? If they make a great contribution, does it matter to you if their Muslim, Christian, or Atheist?
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:03 PM   #82
DUCKofD3ATH
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
I thought my question was clear. You edited my post, leaving out the clear question, which APlotdevice very nicely and succinctly re-stated for me.
I simply removed the redundant final question that you had already asked in the second paragraph. Or is there a subtle difference I missed?:
Actually, what contributions solely attributable to Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) have been made to this exceptional nation.
vs.
In fact...what contributions?
Please explain.

----------

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Originally Posted by APlotdevice View Post
I do not like OR dislike Christians. I do not care about Christianity
Interesting outlook. I'm an atheist but I like many people who are religious.

Quote:
It's just another silly set of traditions and superstitions like every religion. And just like every other religion, its followers vary widely in their attitudes and beliefs.
Agreed.

Quote:
My statement quite obviously in reference to the extremists.
Really? It seemed much broader than "extremists". So if a Christian expresses an opinion on:
Conservative radio, TV shows, and various houses of government throughout the United States
He's an extremist. Is that your point?

Quote:
Yes, and look back a few centuries and you will see exactly the same behavior from Christians. The fact that it remains an issue in the Middle East today says less about the Islamic Faith and more about the complicated history of that region. For instance the Taliban came into power in Afghanistan as a direct result of the US's anti-soviet policy.
I already said that Christianity and Judaism had their psychotic breaks centuries ago. Islam has the misfortune of having been in the midst of theirs for at least a century with no sign of letup.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:05 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
I'm not clear what being Christian had to do with the "contributions to this exceptional nation."

Actually, what contributions solely attributable to Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) have been made to this exceptional nation.

I guess I don't get the part that Christianity played in these contributions to this exceptional nation.

In fact...what contributions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
I simply removed the redundant final question that you had already asked in the second paragraph. Or is there a subtle difference I missed?:
Actually, what contributions solely attributable to Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) have been made to this exceptional nation.
vs.
In fact...what contributions?
Please explain.
Read the question that I asked. If you have difficulty understanding my question...forget about it. I believe it is quite clear and requires no clarification.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:09 PM   #84
DUCKofD3ATH
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
No WMD's of any type found in Iraq.

No connection was ever found with pre 9/11 roisterer cells and anyone or anything in Iraq.
And as I expected, you couldn't back up your points with reliable cites. And the two that were acceptable (see quote above) come nowhere near proving your ridiculous claim the Iraq war was fought for corporate profits.

----------

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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
Read the question that I asked. If you have difficulty understanding my question...forget about it. I believe it is quite clear and requires no clarification.
Well, since you're not interested in clarifying what I thought was confusing, I'll just post what seems applicable:
Who knows? All we know is that this nation is exceptional and for most of its history Christians have comprised about 80% of the population.

One can speculate that the Christian religion has qualities that it imparts on its believers enabling them to make a great nation.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:17 PM   #85
G51989
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
And as I expected, you couldn't back up your points with reliable cites. And the two that were acceptable (see quote above) come nowhere near proving your ridiculous claim the Iraq war was fought for corporate profits.]
Clearly, the only sources you prefer are Fox news? Or the EIB network?

Ok, so if the Bush family did not see a clear war to make money in Iraq, what was the point of Iraq?

What was the point?

No threat to America
No Threat to Anyone
No Nuclear Weapons
No Biological weapons
No terrorist Cells
No Chemical weapons
No Nuclear Weapons Program.
No ' threat to America '

So why was Iraq invaded? Why? Are you happy to see almost 5,000 dead Americans and 100,000 dead innocents? For what? Nothing.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:22 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by G51989 View Post
Clearly, the only sources you prefer are Fox news? Or the EIB network?
Gosh! Did you quote them? I must have missed it while accepting the NBC News and Washington Post quotes. Shucks!

Quote:
Ok, so if the Bush family did not see a clear war to make money in Iraq, what was the point of Iraq?
Oh, you didn't read the goals? Here is the list Rumsfeld gave two days after the invasion of Iraq commenced:

"to end the regime of Saddam Hussein by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished."

"to identify, isolate and eventually eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, their delivery systems, production capabilities, and distribution networks."

"to search for, capture, drive out terrorists who have found safe harbor in Iraq."

"to collect such intelligence as we can find related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond."

"to collect such intelligence as we can find related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity."

"to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian relief, food and medicine to the displaced and to the many needy Iraqi citizens."

"to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people, and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect by the Iraqi regime."

"to help the Iraqi people create the conditions for a rapid transition to a representative self-government that is not a threat to its neighbors and is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of that country."

Looks like exactly what ended up happening. Mission Accomplished, Baby!

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in548893.shtml
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:30 PM   #87
G51989
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
Gosh! Did you quote them? I must have missed it while accepting the NBC News and Washington Post quotes. Shucks![/url]
So you only accept mainstream dumpster news. Point made clear.

Quote:
"to end the regime of Saddam Hussein by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished."
To what end? Iraq is a worse place these days.

Quote:
"to identify, isolate and eventually eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, their delivery systems, production capabilities, and distribution networks."
Which didn't exist.

Quote:
"to search for, capture, drive out terrorists who have found safe harbor in Iraq."
Which didn't exist at the time.

Quote:
"to collect such intelligence as we can find related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond."
Networks which did not exist.

Quote:
"to collect such intelligence as we can find related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity."
Which didn't exist, because Iraq had no working WMD program.

Quote:
"to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian relief, food and medicine to the displaced and to the many needy Iraqi citizens."
Via Killing 100,000 of them. Many countries were in far more dire straights than iraq, why didn't rummie want to help them?

Quote:
"to secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people, and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect by the Iraqi regime."
Of which the US has seen zero benefit to those oil resources.

Quote:
"to help the Iraqi people create the conditions for a rapid transition to a representative self-government that is not a threat to its neighbors and is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of that country."
Which led to 100,000 killed, and a still unstable country, in worse shape than it was before the US got involved.

The facts are, Iraq is in worse shape than it was before the US went in on a " moral high ground ", the mission was never accomplished.

You seem to take things at face value, and blindly follow any GOP statement of success.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:34 PM   #88
DUCKofD3ATH
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I disagree with your conclusions. I see you couldn't find fault with my cite.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:38 PM   #89
G51989
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I disagree with your conclusions. I see you couldn't find fault with my cite.
Rather than me write it out.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/twenty-...aq-war/5327386


I want to know what the real reasons we went to Iraq was. Clearly WMDs were not one.

They didn't exist. Provide a source that Nuclear, Chemical, and Bio local weapons existed in Iraq, as well as large scale programs to support their storage and deployment.

You source also doesn't source ANY of that happening, its just a bunch of quotes.

Last edited by G51989; Aug 27, 2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 06:52 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by DUCKofD3ATH View Post
One can speculate that the Christian religion has qualities that it imparts on its believers enabling them to make a great nation.[/INDENT]
And what qualities does the Christian religion impart to it's believers that enables them to make a great nation that is unique to Christianity...and possibly not available to other religions, or the non-religious?

Are you suggesting that the non-religious cannot, or do not, contribute to making the nation great (an assertion that will be accepted, for the moment, for the sake of the discussion)?
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 07:01 PM   #91
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So I checked out that URL and saw this: "Twenty Lies About the Iraq War". And the very first "lie" was chock full o' unsubstantiated innuendo. For instance:
This did not stop the constant stream of assertions that Iraq was involved in 9/11
And yet they don't produce any links proving that such was the case (it wasn't).

By the way, Global Research obviously doesn't know the answer, but do you know the definition of "lie"?:

lie: an intentionally false statement


You guys have been way too free with calling people liars when they were simply mistaken.

I think I've been fair. I won't waste more time on the rest of your post.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 07:02 PM   #92
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[QUOTE=DUCKofD3ATH;17797012]So I checked out that URL and saw this: "Twenty Lies About the Iraq War". And the very first "lie" was chock full o' unsubstantiated innuendo. For instance:
This did not stop the constant stream of assertions that Iraq was involved in 9/11
And yet they don't produce any links proving that such was the case (it wasn't).
/QUOTE]

Provide solid evidence that Iraq and Saddam hussian were responsible for 9/11.
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 07:06 PM   #93
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Jews in the UK are allowed to use Jewish law for certain things. Why shouldn't other religions have the same rights?
My own view on this is that Jews or Muslim's, or anybody else, should be able to live as they please, within the law. That said, it wasn't very long ago that I thought banning the burka was wrong, but now I believe it's a prison cell for women. To protect women forced or shamed into wearing it against their will, it should be banned.

Sharia Law though, has aspects to it that are clearly not within the law here in the UK, or the US. The article I posted linked to the extreme views that younger muslim's have. Their parents were not as radical when they were young. Many of them left their homelands to escape the brutality of strict and brutal Sharia Law. It's a real issue, and just saying that Western involvement in the Middle East would drive anybody to become radical, is not going to solve anything.

I keep reading here people using the word "hate" to describe those who are concerned about certain aspects of growing Islamic influence within the UK and USA. It's not hate to hate discrimination and death. It's remarkable to me how readily that word is thrown around. Would those same people use it if I was speaking up for gay rights? I doubt it. And yet within the Islamic world gays are often killed. It's the negative aspects of this untouchable religion by some, that I hate. Many Muslims do wonderful things everyday. This isn't, for me at least, and I know for a lot of others too, about hating muslim's, it's about hating the hate that Islam so often brings into the cultures where it's practised. And no Christian's are not killing people for blasphemy, threatening apostates, killing gays, stopping women from driving etc.

From the article on the UK muslim's-

"Turning to issues of faith, 36 per cent of the young people questioned said they believed that a Muslim who converts to another religion should be "punished by death." Among the over 55s, the figure is only 19 per cent.

Three out of four young Muslims would prefer Muslim women to "choose to wear the veil or hijab," compared to only a quarter of over-55s."
~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html
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Old Aug 27, 2013, 07:10 PM   #94
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And what qualities does the Christian religion impart to it's believers that enables them to make a great nation that is unique to Christianity...and possibly not available to other religions, or the non-religious?
Probably a combination: Christian morality along with the Protestant work ethic:
The Protestant work ethic (or the Puritan work ethic) is a concept in theology, sociology, economics and history which emphasizes hard work, frugality and diligence as a constant display of a person's salvation in the Christian faith, in contrast to the focus upon religious attendance, confession, and ceremonial sacrament in the Catholic tradition.
Quote:
Are you suggesting that the non-religious cannot, or do not, contribute to making the nation great (an assertion that will be accepted, for the moment, for the sake of the discussion)?
Nope. I'm an atheist, so why would I exclude my sort from those who contribute to making this country so exceptional?

Probably you've forgotten, but my original comment on this was in response to a poster's intemperate comments about Christians:
I respect the contributions Christians have made to this exceptional nation. Why do you hate them so?
See? Nowhere do I say that ONLY Christians have made contributions.
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