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Old Jun 22, 2013, 11:35 AM   #76
skunk
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Originally Posted by renewed View Post
Perversion can mean to steer from something's original intention.
So a perversion can be just an innocuous term for a change of plan? I didn't know that.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 01:00 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by renewed View Post
Perversion can mean to steer from something's original intention.
Citation needed.

When it means that, is it neutral? Or is it generally perceived as "for ill"?

One can "pervert the course of justice", but this is recognized as a criminal offense in some jurisdictions. That is, it's for ill.

One can also pervert another's words, attempting to give them a meaning opposite to what the original speaker intended. For example, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" could be perverted as a promotion for buggering sheep.

There are also "perverse incentives", in which a rule or policy tends to act against its original intention. So assuming that rules or policies are mainly enacted for reasons of achieving good (however defined), a perverse incentive is mainly going to be perceived as ill, not good.

If I start a drive by heading for the mountains, but decide it's too cold and head to the beach instead, if I later say "I perverted my course because of the cold" I don't think anyone would think I made a change for the better.

If Screwtape devises a subtle plan to capture souls for his dark Father Below, and somehow his plan is ruined and the souls instead go The Enemy, then Screwtape may well say his plan was perverted, but I don't think any other souls would.

So if there's a definition where "pervert" (in any of its forms) has a neutral or positive connotation, I'd like to see that definition. All the connotations I can find so far are negative.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 06:49 PM   #78
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Definition of perversion
noun
[mass noun]
1distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something:
the thing which most disturbed him was the perversion of language and truth
[count noun]:
a scandalous perversion of the law

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/perversion
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 07:25 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by renewed View Post
Definition of perversion
noun
[mass noun]
1distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something:
the thing which most disturbed him was the perversion of language and truth
[count noun]:
a scandalous perversion of the law

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ish/perversion
"Corruption" has a clear negative connotation:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ish/corruption

The connotation of "distortion" depends somewhat on context:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ish/distortion
1 the action of distorting or the state of being distorted:
the virus causes distortion of the leaves
[count noun]:
deliberate distortions of pitch and timbre
[count noun] a distorted form or part:
a distortion in the eye’s shape or structure

2 the action of giving a misleading account or impression:
we’re fed up with the media’s continuing distortion of our issues
3 change in the form of an electrical signal or sound wave during processing.
I'd call #1 neutral, or at least no clear connotation. #2 I would clearly call a negative connotation. #3 is neutral, because some electronic circuits are intentionally designed to add distortion: a guitar fuzz-box springs to mind.


So I'm going to conclude that you agree the word "perversion" doesn't have a neutral or positive connotation, only a negative one, and using it as if it didn't have a negative connotation would be a perversion of its defined meaning.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:59 PM   #80
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If you're suggesting that I am claiming to find the perverse state sex has been transformed into a neutral one then you're wrong. Of course I find it to be negative. This is based on my belief system not to be confused with the beliefs of others. I also said others have the right to believe what they want and my ideas are strictly based on my own definitions and conclusions.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:20 PM   #81
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You gents are just trying to stir this man up simply because he confessed his religious beliefs. That's it. I seriously doubt any of you have any interest in the topic, and are simply attacking him just because you feel yourselves fighters for your cause. It's sad really.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 09:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by renewed View Post
If you're suggesting that I am claiming to find the perverse state sex has been transformed into a neutral one then you're wrong. Of course I find it to be negative. This is based on my belief system not to be confused with the beliefs of others. I also said others have the right to believe what they want and my ideas are strictly based on my own definitions and conclusions.
Sorry, my mistake. I was focusing on the word "perversion", when I should have focussed on the word "condemnation".

You wrote:
Perversion can mean to steer from something's original intention.

It's not a condemnation but simply an observation based on ones beliefs.
From the definition of condemn:
1 express complete disapproval of; censure:
and condemnation:
1 the expression of very strong disapproval; censure:
I take your use of the word "perversion" to be an expression of strong disapproval for certain actions. That is, your use of the word "perversion" is indeed a condemnation of those actions you disapprove of. I don't see how it could be otherwise.

Last edited by chown33; Jun 22, 2013 at 09:45 PM.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 10:48 PM   #83
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After reading through the last few pages of this thread I find myself in agreement with the guy who said "sexual repression is a malady that considers itself the remedy"...
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 04:56 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by SprSynJn View Post
You gents are just trying to stir this man up simply because he confessed his religious beliefs. That's it. I seriously doubt any of you have any interest in the topic, and are simply attacking him just because you feel yourselves fighters for your cause. It's sad really.
Absolutely not. To claim one is not condemning something while describing it in entirely pejorative language is disingenuous at best.

Last edited by skunk; Jun 23, 2013 at 05:28 AM.
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Old Jun 23, 2013, 02:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by SprSynJn View Post
You gents are just trying to stir this man up simply because he confessed his religious beliefs. That's it. I seriously doubt any of you have any interest in the topic, and are simply attacking him just because you feel yourselves fighters for your cause. It's sad really.
Actually I am a neuroscientist who has spent my last 20 years studying the brain's reward system. Explaining why people feel pleasure and determining when animals feels pleasure is a core aspect of my research. The use of the word 'perversion' in relation to sex implies a purpose, which is an often misused and misguided notion when it comes to evolution of behavioural traits. A rock falls from high to low - is that it's purpose? I am not trying to attack a person, but to argue against what I believe is an irrational way of looking at evolution of behavior.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 11:28 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by VulchR View Post
Actually I am a neuroscientist who has spent my last 20 years studying the brain's reward system. Explaining why people feel pleasure and determining when animals feels pleasure is a core aspect of my research. The use of the word 'perversion' in relation to sex implies a purpose, which is an often misused and misguided notion when it comes to evolution of behavioural traits. A rock falls from high to low - is that it's purpose? I am not trying to attack a person, but to argue against what I believe is an irrational way of looking at evolution of behavior.
My original intention of starting this thread is curiosity. It appears obvious we know the "why" organisms (at least mammals) develop a pleasurable state during sex, and I feel most of would agree agree as to the purpose, but my question is "what" caused this mechanism to naturally develop- do we know that? And is even the concept of "pleasure" consistent for all organisms? I imagine it could be a need minus the pleasure, more like removing a discomfort, ie scratching an itch.
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Old Jun 24, 2013, 07:30 PM   #87
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My original intention of starting this thread is curiosity. It appears obvious we know the "why" organisms (at least mammals) develop a pleasurable state during sex, and I feel most of would agree agree as to the purpose, but my question is "what" caused this mechanism to naturally develop- do we know that? And is even the concept of "pleasure" consistent for all organisms? I imagine it could be a need minus the pleasure, more like removing a discomfort, ie scratching an itch.
It could be observer bias and self-selection: only the offspring of many generations of organisms whose parent organisms had the urge are alive today to question why all extant species seem to have such an urge...
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Old Jun 27, 2013, 04:49 PM   #88
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My impression is that most mammals function in a like matter. We know or should know that sexual climax releases endorphins, a natural high. The act and climax along with intimacy is highly desired by most of us. But in a pinch climax is enough. Evidence is that most people engage in sex on most occasions for enjoyment, not procreation, but the official reason is that "nature" induces us to engage in sex for the purpose of procreation and continutaion of the species.

We also know that humans are attracted to the opposite gender based on appearance we call "sexy", but are also known to help the species procreate and be successful. There for a certain proportion in women, including child bearing hips that without thinking about it, men find desirable. Strong virile or men who have personal wealth has traditionally been a desirable trait women look for to have strong healthy children, or to ensure their personal security during child raising years. I've noted that the latter (possession of wealth) may be reversing genders as more women become the bread winners of the family and instead of having a biological basis is probably just cultural common sense.

How did these characteristics become part of our make up? Do animals engage in sex because they know they are procreating or are they just being lured by the pleasure of sex? It can be argued that without this incentive, most mammals are not thinking about procreating, and would not engage in such activity just for that purpose (procreation), or would they? So the question is wow did these mechanisms get established in organisms?

I have no idea. I know what is. I just don't know how such things developed. Any biologists on the forum who'd care to comment? Here's an interesting article about Why We Have Sex at Psychology Today.



Enjoy!

Because it's cheaper than DVDs?

Why will women become breadwinners? Populist figures show they still make less than men for doing the same work, but on the plus side - as wages continue to stagnate or fall, it won't make a difference as people in families will have to spend more time earning pittances than to be in robust human relationships.

Let's look at society and make some real decisions about how we treat one another. Otherwise it's all guff.
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Old Jun 29, 2013, 09:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
My original intention of starting this thread is curiosity. It appears obvious we know the "why" organisms (at least mammals) develop a pleasurable state during sex, and I feel most of would agree agree as to the purpose, but my question is "what" caused this mechanism to naturally develop- do we know that? And is even the concept of "pleasure" consistent for all organisms? I imagine it could be a need minus the pleasure, more like removing a discomfort, ie scratching an itch.
Agreed. I think it has to with the evolution of mobility. Foraging animals exploit new environments and possibly even new niches. However, in order for reproduction to occur the opposite sexes must be drawn near each other. That creates the sex drive and the gratification might allow the organisms to forage activity again since the sex drive is reduced. There some rather funny research on the 'Coolidge effect' in this regard.....

Of course once we get into social species that raise offspring, like humans, additional factors play a role.
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Old Jun 29, 2013, 09:35 AM   #90
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Agreed. I think it has to with the evolution of mobility. Foraging animals exploit new environments and possibly even new niches. However, in order for reproduction to occur the opposite sexes must be drawn near each other. That creates the sex drive and the gratification might allow the organisms to forage activity again since the sex drive is reduced. There some rather funny research on the 'Coolidge effect' in this regard.....

Of course once we get into social species that raise offspring, like humans, additional factors play a role.
Know what little that I know, the answer goes back to evolution, the animals who developed this "need" are the ones who proliferate. The other possibility that I tend to discount because there is no scientific method (I am aware of) to explore this would be intelligent design.
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