Suggestions for a new TV

Pyromonkey83 · Dec 30, 2012

dinggus said:
I don't get it. Is that what the TruMotion is? I can put it on Normal, Fast, Faster and it looks like everything is speeding but it's still in sync.

Yes that is what TruMotion is. As a basic explination, your TV receives 60 frames every second as input. The TV processor and software then tries to "guess" (interpolate) 3 frames in between every 2 of those frames. This means you get 240 frames every second instead, 60 "real" (or source) frames and 180 "fake" (interpolated or "guessed") frames.

It does this through many algorithms to try and figure out what frames would go in the middle if they existed. For an example look below, and imagine that 0's are a sidewalk, and the 1 is a person walking down said sidewalk. This is what your TV is attempting to do.

Code:

Source Frames:

Frame 1  |  Frame 2
 10000       00001

-----------------------

120hz Interpolation (Frame 2 is "guessed")

Frame 1  |  Frame 2  |  Frame 3
  10000      00100       00001

-----------------------

240hz Interpolation (Frame 2, 3, and 4 are "guessed")

Frame 1  |  Frame 2  |  Frame 3  |  Frame 4  |  Frame 5
 10000       01000       00100       00010       00001

dinggus · Dec 30, 2012

And this is so I don't miss any frames? Because I can look at a 15yr old TV and it looks fine. Then I look at a TV with TruMotion and I'm like "wtf, motion sickness"m and my buddies would be like "what are you talking about, it's normal". They would tell me that it's suppose to be real life movements.

From what I understand is, old TV's had missing frames, but our eyes couldn't see the difference anyways?

HazyCloud · Dec 30, 2012

dinggus said:
So it's mainly for sports?

I don't know if my TV has Game Mode. I was playing with TruMotion, didn't notice a lag. What would help to play in 3D? I notice there's a lag with that.

I think it was designed for fast moving video like sports or action movies.

There's a lag when viewing non 3D, it's just not noticeable unless you need those milliseconds like on a multiplayer game.

As for 3D, there isn't much you can do.

Michael CM1 · Dec 30, 2012

Your desires all sound good, except I would recommend getting WiFi built in. That way you can update the firmware easily. Apps are mostly crap aside from your standard Netflix, Hulu, etc. that are on every smart device on the planet. Save $200 on the TV and buy a $99 Apple TV.

I have a Samsung that I like, but I have decided to go with LG in the future unless I learn something bad about them. Samsung has really turned me off with some of the anti-Apple commercials, and I'm the type of person to stick my foot up a company's butt monetarily if I can.

Pyromonkey83 · Dec 30, 2012

dinggus said:
And this is so I don't miss any frames? Because I can look at a 15yr old TV and it looks fine. Then I look at a TV with TruMotion and I'm like "wtf, motion sickness"m and my buddies would be like "what are you talking about, it's normal". They would tell me that it's suppose to be real life movements.

From what I understand is, old TV's had missing frames, but our eyes couldn't see the difference anyways?

The frames weren't necessarily missing, just put in a lower frame rate. Your eye can discern approximately 600 frames per second, but your brain can only functionally process about 30 of them at a given time. Old tube TVs have the ability to refresh at an almost infinite rate, but sources only showed between 24 and 30 frames per second on movies and TV shows. New LCD TVs are made very differently, and as such the refresh and frame rate needed to be increased for your eyes to see it the same way. The motion sickness you experience is a result of your eyes seeing what is happening, but your brain not yet being able to cope with the extra frames.

As you experience this phenomenon more often, your brain learns to cope more with the added frames, and it will begin to look more realistic as time goes by. Once you get used to a 240hz TV you will find that things looks choppy or sluggish on a 60hz TV. I compare it to seeing HD vs SD for the first time. You don't really notice HD the first time you see it other than it seems to look kind of weird or different. Once you get used to HD though, SD looks extremely subpar.

The other effect to this is that your brain will divert more "processing power" to discern the additional frames or pixels when watching a high frame rate HD picture. This means you will seem more distracted when watching TV than you previously would, but overall the picture and quality are far superior.

----------

HazyCloud said:
I think it was designed for fast moving video like sports or action movies.

There's a lag when viewing non 3D, it's just not noticeable unless you need those milliseconds like on a multiplayer game.

As for 3D, there isn't much you can do.

This is all correct. Newer TV's have better processors and as such the lag is reduced. For first generation 3D TVs however the lag is quite a bit more noticeable. You can turn down the refresh rate and interpolation to help this lag (Game Mode essentially does this) but you may instead notice more "flickering" from your glasses (assuming they are shutter glasses AKA Active 3D).

----------

Michael CM1 said:
Your desires all sound good, except I would recommend getting WiFi built in. That way you can update the firmware easily. Apps are mostly crap aside from your standard Netflix, Hulu, etc. that are on every smart device on the planet. Save $200 on the TV and buy a $99 Apple TV.

I have a Samsung that I like, but I have decided to go with LG in the future unless I learn something bad about them. Samsung has really turned me off with some of the anti-Apple commercials, and I'm the type of person to stick my foot up a company's butt monetarily if I can.

The only downside to LG is that they use passive 3D technology that is currently quite subpar to active 3D tech. If you ever watch anything in 3D the content will be scaled down to 720p instead of 1080p and your frame rate will be reduced to 24hz (for movies/TV) or 60hz (for games in game mode).

Of course if you don't care about 3D or don't want 3D, then you probably wont have a problem

ChristianVirtual · Dec 31, 2012

I bought last year two Sony Bravia. Both model with NX720 in the name. They have a nice monolithic front glass made from Gorilla Glass. Plus for me important was Hulu build in connected with Ethernet cable to my router to keep bandwidth usage low on wifi.

dinggus · Dec 31, 2012

HazyCloud said:
I think it was designed for fast moving video like sports or action movies.

There's a lag when viewing non 3D, it's just not noticeable unless you need those milliseconds like on a multiplayer game.

As for 3D, there isn't much you can do.

Okay, yeah on TruMotion and 3D, my buddy and I can notice a very very small lag when playing, but it could also be because the xbox is on WiFI which the router is upstairs and the xbox is down stairs.

Pyromonkey83 said:
The frames weren't necessarily missing, just put in a lower frame rate. Your eye can discern approximately 600 frames per second, but your brain can only functionally process about 30 of them at a given time. Old tube TVs have the ability to refresh at an almost infinite rate, but sources only showed between 24 and 30 frames per second on movies and TV shows. New LCD TVs are made very differently, and as such the refresh and frame rate needed to be increased for your eyes to see it the same way. The motion sickness you experience is a result of your eyes seeing what is happening, but your brain not yet being able to cope with the extra frames.

As you experience this phenomenon more often, your brain learns to cope more with the added frames, and it will begin to look more realistic as time goes by. Once you get used to a 240hz TV you will find that things looks choppy or sluggish on a 60hz TV. I compare it to seeing HD vs SD for the first time. You don't really notice HD the first time you see it other than it seems to look kind of weird or different. Once you get used to HD though, SD looks extremely subpar.

The other effect to this is that your brain will divert more "processing power" to discern the additional frames or pixels when watching a high frame rate HD picture. This means you will seem more distracted when watching TV than you previously would, but overall the picture and quality are far superior.

Thanks for breaking it down. I'm sure I'm use to it right now, I haven't seen any other TV's. I should see how it looks on my 2009 plasma. So, if our eyes can only process 60 fps, is there really a point in getting anything higher than 120hz? Is the hertz meaning fps?

Pyromonkey83 · Dec 31, 2012

dinggus said:
Okay, yeah on TruMotion and 3D, my buddy and I can notice a very very small lag when playing, but it could also be because the xbox is on WiFI which the router is upstairs and the xbox is down stairs.

Thanks for breaking it down. I'm sure I'm use to it right now, I haven't seen any other TV's. I should see how it looks on my 2009 plasma. So, if our eyes can only process 60 fps, is there really a point in getting anything higher than 120hz? Is the hertz meaning fps?

hertz is "cycles per second" which in the case of TVs generally means frames per second. There are also other uses for the term hertz such as AC outlets which use hertz as a cycle counter as well.

I should also note that Plasma TVs work in similar ways to Tube TVs, so you will not notice the sluggishness that you would on a 60hz LCD/LED TV. Plasma TVs often try to note their refresh rates at 600hz (In the case of Panasonic) or higher, but this is inaccurate. Since many consumers do not know the specifics of TVs, they see LCD TV's that say "240hz!!!!!!!!" and then a Plasma with nothing. To them this means it is inferior, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Plasma TV's often repeat frames 10 times or more (with 60 fps source) which also helps reduce motion blur.

LCD screens (especially ones with LED lighting) work very differently than Tubes or Plasmas. A picture is made by turning off the backlight, activating certain pixels, then turning the light back on. This repeats faster than your eye can see. LED lighting has made this very efficient, and LED sets often turn off the light 10 times per frame shown (sometimes more). This is why the motion blur occurs, as you are literally seeing flashes of pictures. Tube and Plasma TVs (also DLP/Projection TVs) do not turn off the backlight (since they dont actually have one) but instead morph the pictures. This makes it look more fluid because the TV does not change the entire picture all at one time. To see what I mean, take a video camera and record an LCD screen. You will see the full screen normally. Then film a CRT/Tube TV and you will be able to see the refresh lines streaming up and down the screen, obscuring the picture. This gives it a natural feel and does not require a higher frame rate.

In terms of never needing to buy higher than a 120hz TV, this is partially correct. You will likely not be able to see any motion blur after 120hz unless you REALLY concentrate and see them side by side. The benefit to 240hz TV's are in 3D technology. 240hz TVs allow you to see each eye in 120hz (since each eye is shown as a seperate frame), reducing motion blur when watching things in 3D. If it weren't for 3D, 240hz would basically be useless for your eyes.

WhiteIphone5 · Dec 31, 2012

sdilley14 said:
I am starting to look into buying a new TV.

What I want out of my new TV...

50"-60"
LED/LCD
3+ HDMI Outputs
Optical Audio Output
120 Hz + refresh rate
1080p
Price range: $1200 or less

What I'm really not interested in...

3D capability
Smart TV / built in apps
Internet connectivity
USB connectivity (though it wouldn't hurt)

So as you can see, I'm basically just looking for a nice quality, no frills, "dumb" TV, fairly large size, good amount of outputs, and it has to be LCD. 55" is pretty ideal considering my living room set up, but I would be OK going a few inches smaller or bigger if the price is right.

Here is the TV I have been looking at...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009H8JOZS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

This pretty much hits the sweet spot of price/quality/size. Though I would be interested in a similar TV without the smart TV function and a little bit smaller in size if it is a good enough deal. I would prefer to buy off of Amazon to avoid sales tax. I found a comparable 55" Vizio at my local Wal-Mart for $868...but after 5.5% sales tax, it seems like a better idea to just spend the extra $100 and get this decked out 60".

I'm not at all married to the idea of getting a Vizio. I would be open to any brand. I've just been looking at this one because it seems to fit all my criteria, it's at a great price point, and the Amazon reviews have been largely positive.

http://www.hhgregg.com/sharp-60-ful...LC60LE600U?intcmp=homepageBanner-1-LC60LE600U

Might upgrade to that one, upgrading from a 47e3d420vx

sdilley14 · Jan 1, 2013

WhiteIphone5 said:
http://www.hhgregg.com/sharp-60-ful...LC60LE600U?intcmp=homepageBanner-1-LC60LE600U

Might upgrade to that one, upgrading from a 47e3d420vx

Whoa...nice find, thanks!

JGRE · Jan 2, 2013

sdilley14 said:
I am starting to look into buying a new TV.

What I want out of my new TV...

50"-60"
LED/LCD
3+ HDMI Outputs
Optical Audio Output
120 Hz + refresh rate
1080p
Price range: $1200 or less

What I'm really not interested in...

3D capability
Smart TV / built in apps
Internet connectivity
USB connectivity (though it wouldn't hurt)

So as you can see, I'm basically just looking for a nice quality, no frills, "dumb" TV, fairly large size, good amount of outputs, and it has to be LCD. 55" is pretty ideal considering my living room set up, but I would be OK going a few inches smaller or bigger if the price is right.

Here is the TV I have been looking at...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009H8JOZS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

This pretty much hits the sweet spot of price/quality/size. Though I would be interested in a similar TV without the smart TV function and a little bit smaller in size if it is a good enough deal. I would prefer to buy off of Amazon to avoid sales tax. I found a comparable 55" Vizio at my local Wal-Mart for $868...but after 5.5% sales tax, it seems like a better idea to just spend the extra $100 and get this decked out 60".

I'm not at all married to the idea of getting a Vizio. I would be open to any brand. I've just been looking at this one because it seems to fit all my criteria, it's at a great price point, and the Amazon reviews have been largely positive.

The only advice I can give you is: If you look at lot sports or do a lot af gaming, the TV you are looking at has a pretty low refresh rate (120Hz). You might wanna compare it to a Samsung or LG (400-800Hz) to see whether you expirence this as a differences

Pyromonkey83 · Jan 2, 2013

JGRE said:
The only advice I can give you is: If you look at lot sports or do a lot af gaming, the TV you are looking at has a pretty low refresh rate (120Hz). You might wanna compare it to a Samsung or LG (400-800Hz) to see whether you expirence this as a differences

Read my post above. You have fallen into their marketing schemes! 120hz is perfectly fine if you are not using 3D.

Also, their 400hz+ claims are total BS. They are all 240hz TVs.

JGRE · Jan 2, 2013

Pyromonkey83 said:
Read my post above. You have fallen into their marketing schemes! 120hz is perfectly fine if you are not using 3D.

Also, their 400hz+ claims are total BS. They are all 240hz TVs.

Yes, you are right, therefore I suggested "whether you experience this as a differences".
You should believe your own eyes, not the technical jibberjabber they are trying to sell us.
I chose my TV (Samsung 7 series) purely on the looks (screen and TV itself)

JGRE · Jan 2, 2013

Pyromonkey83 said:
hertz is "cycles per second" which in the case of TVs generally means frames per second. There are also other uses for the term hertz such as AC outlets which use hertz as a cycle counter as well.

I should also note that Plasma TVs work in similar ways to Tube TVs, so you will not notice the sluggishness that you would on a 60hz LCD/LED TV. Plasma TVs often try to note their refresh rates at 600hz (In the case of Panasonic) or higher, but this is inaccurate. Since many consumers do not know the specifics of TVs, they see LCD TV's that say "240hz!!!!!!!!" and then a Plasma with nothing. To them this means it is inferior, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Plasma TV's often repeat frames 10 times or more (with 60 fps source) which also helps reduce motion blur.

LCD screens (especially ones with LED lighting) work very differently than Tubes or Plasmas. A picture is made by turning off the backlight, activating certain pixels, then turning the light back on. This repeats faster than your eye can see. LED lighting has made this very efficient, and LED sets often turn off the light 10 times per frame shown (sometimes more). This is why the motion blur occurs, as you are literally seeing flashes of pictures. Tube and Plasma TVs (also DLP/Projection TVs) do not turn off the backlight (since they dont actually have one) but instead morph the pictures. This makes it look more fluid because the TV does not change the entire picture all at one time. To see what I mean, take a video camera and record an LCD screen. You will see the full screen normally. Then film a CRT/Tube TV and you will be able to see the refresh lines streaming up and down the screen, obscuring the picture. This gives it a natural feel and does not require a higher frame rate.

In terms of never needing to buy higher than a 120hz TV, this is partially correct. You will likely not be able to see any motion blur after 120hz unless you REALLY concentrate and see them side by side. The benefit to 240hz TV's are in 3D technology. 240hz TVs allow you to see each eye in 120hz (since each eye is shown as a seperate frame), reducing motion blur when watching things in 3D. If it weren't for 3D, 240hz would basically be useless for your eyes.

I doubt whether your comment is correct with respect to the on and off switching of the back-lite. The backlite in an edge LED or conventional LCD panel is not switched on or of, it is the LCD raster in front of the back-lite which takes care of the dimming. Only full-led TV are capable of so-called local dimming., which means they can actually shut-down parts of the back-lite. The newest LED TV have an AMOLED/OLED layer which provides for both the dimming and light in one layer integrated. They can shut down light per pixel.

See Wikipedia on this:

An LED-backlit LCD display is a flat panel display which uses LED backlighting instead of the cold cathode fluorescent (CCFL) backlighting used by most other LCDs.[1] LED-backlit LCD TVs use the same TFT LCD (thin film transistor liquid crystal display) technologies as CCFL-backlit LCD TVs. Picture quality is primarily based on TFT LCD technology, independent of backlight type.

The TV you are discussing is not an AMOLED/OLED or a full LED (these are high-end TV's), so the back-lite has no impact on the picture quality it provides only light nothing else. The Hz is the times the LCD is being refreshed, something a human eye can only follow to a certain degree (certainly not 800 times per second).

Pyromonkey83 · Jan 2, 2013

JGRE said:
The TV you are discussing is not an AMOLED/OLED or a full LED (these are high-end TV's), so the back-lite has no impact on the picture quality it provides only light nothing else. The Hz is the times the LCD is being refreshed, something a human eye can only follow to a certain degree (certainly not 800 times per second).

This is completely correct for previous generation TVs. This is also completely INcorrect for newer generation TV's

Let me also start by saying that I intermixed terms to make my posts easier to follow. I'll also say that I too chose my Samsung based upon looks (D7000 series) and not about all the crap they put on the box. I am merely trying to educate some of the people asking for help on why they shouldn't care about certain technologies on TVs.

Samsung itself quotes (In regards to Clear Motion Rate) "But CMR offers a more complete measure by calculating 3 factors: frame refresh rate, image processor speed and backlight technology." They further explain each of the three parts, and it states backlight technology as such "Backlight technology: Samsung's backlight regulates output precisely in synchronization with the screen refresh to lessen the time it is lit, reducing ghosting and motion blur."

Now why would they regulate backlight output if it was meant to stay on the entire time? The truth is, that they are lying through their teeth on their Clear Motion Rate amount by saying it "looks like 960hz!" and they feel no remorse.

The way they are getting their number is by taking the true panel refresh rate (240hz) then strobing the back light 4 times per frame, as in turning it on and off 4 times. This then gives you a 960 "CMR" rating. Sony, LG, and Vizio all do this as well. Sony calls it Motionflow, LG calls it TruMotion, Vizio calls it Effective Refresh Rate (although Vizio also states the actual refresh rate).

The truth is that your eye can see well upwards of 600 fps/hz easily. The problem is that your brain cannot process all of this information. To do a test to see what I mean, go outside on a sunny day and wave a finger in front of your face. It will look blurry when you focus on the background, and in focus when you focus on your finger (dont get too dizzy...). This is your brain focusing on one or the other because it cant handle both. The same exact thing happens with TV's only engineers find more ways to trick your eyes and brain on seeing whatever they want you to see.

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