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Old Aug 12, 2013, 11:38 AM   #26
Zombie Acorn
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hmm. this page from that site seems to put your argument on somewhat shaky ground. Three of the top five states, ten of the top 25 have been blue or blue-ish; California is tenth of fifty.
California has other things going for it, have you been to Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma? Its like a giant crop with a road weaving through it. All of those crops are subsidized so they are taking government money for each and every one of them.

I personally would end most of the farm subsidies, but thats not up for debate.
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Old Aug 12, 2013, 12:07 PM   #27
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California has other things going for it, have you been to Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma? Its like a giant crop with a road weaving through it. All of those crops are subsidized so they are taking government money for each and every one of them.

I personally would end most of the farm subsidies, but thats not up for debate.
I have, in fact, been to those states. I have been in Topeka, it sure looks to me like a rather big city. I almost drove into the big military base near Manhattan. And ISTR Boeing has a rather large production facility in that state.

I was just in Oklahoma a week ago, large parts of it are full of roughnecks I got a cool picture of drilling rigs framing wind generators in the background. And we drove through OKC, that seemed like a rather large city.

I have been in all of the contiguous states west of the big river. All of them have one or more dense urban areas, and all of them have vast sparsely populated areas of ag or desert. Kansas is not that different, structurally, from California, it is just that most people see Kansas out an airplane window, so they have lots of elbow room to develop insularity.
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Old Aug 12, 2013, 12:48 PM   #28
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I was at Ft. Leavenworth a couple years back for some training. I can say I've been to Kansas I can say I'll never be back. The were some good things about KC though; they have great blues, a knock out vegan BBQ place, and great local brewery.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 10:35 AM   #29
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I love that people argue against the government controlling things. And they argue against anything at all being socialized. And then the same people argue that marijuana should be controlled and taxed by the government. I run in to this kind of thing every day so I am a little numb to it.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:07 AM   #30
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I was at Ft. Leavenworth a couple years back for some training. I can say I've been to Kansas I can say I'll never be back. The were some good things about KC though; they have great blues, a knock out vegan BBQ place, and great local brewery.
KCM, and even KCK, are awesome. The rest of the states (both) are crap.
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 12:26 AM   #31
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Our tax subsidies are going to cheap meat and corn syrup, the latter of which makes us fat and sick. Good going.

That said, even as a slightly resentful urbanite, I see the point of agricultural subsidies as keeping ourselves self-sufficient as food producers. If we didn't subsidize, prices of American-produced grain would rise, and we'd have more incentive to import it, putting our own farmers out of business and making us dependent on other countries that could use that fact for leverage (see also: middle eastern oil dependency -- this would be even worse) or make us extremely vulnerable in case of a major war.

At the very least, though, we could be spending our subsidies on healthier crops.
Amen. There's a general approach that if some is good, more must be better. And pretty soon we get carried away. We should have protections for food producers and food consumers, but to keep things stable and healthy. Not to the degree that HCS is in everything, that cattle are fed grains they don't even naturally eat, that ethanol is pushed to the point (last I heard) takes more energy to produce than it provides, and that simple carbohydrates (processed food) are so much cheaper it's now a primary food source for so many Americans.
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Old Oct 21, 2013, 02:28 PM   #32
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Amen. There's a general approach that if some is good, more must be better. And pretty soon we get carried away. We should have protections for food producers and food consumers, but to keep things stable and healthy. Not to the degree that HCS is in everything, that cattle are fed grains they don't even naturally eat, that ethanol is pushed to the point (last I heard) takes more energy to produce than it provides, and that simple carbohydrates (processed food) are so much cheaper it's now a primary food source for so many Americans.
It is like you read my mind. The abundance of simple carbs is something that I feel very strongly about.

Just FYI on the Ethanol point... different crops have different degrees of efficiency when it comes to manufacture. I haven't seen anything come out past the mid 2000s but everything seemed to be pointing to Corn based Ethanol producing more energy then what was put in and it was increasing on the efficiency side due to new manufacturing techniques.. Also, Sugarcane Ethanol which has a few hurdles (tin foil hat: corn lobby) in its way is close to 3x more efficient. Also, I believe we we burn more energy in gasoline/diesel production than the end result. Could be wrong on that last part though, haven't found enough in depth stuff.
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Old Oct 22, 2013, 11:47 AM   #33
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Reminds me of an irony I'd like to learn more about.

The interest in ethanol is powered (sorry) by the kinds of engines that need it. But it seems like if we hadn't had the oil crisis and subsequent negative experience with diesel cars (to save fuel), there would be more of them available and on the road. And diesel engines can run off vegetable oil, with little to no conversion - part of the energy cost with using ethanol.

It's like we're so busy trying to go directly from one extreme (cars powered by crude oil) to the other (cars with batteries) that we're missing this huge opportunity in the middle. Powering cars fueled by oil, extracted (not refined) from beans, grown in a field. Something that would massively benefit both red and blue states.
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Old Oct 23, 2013, 05:50 AM   #34
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Reminds me of an irony I'd like to learn more about.

The interest in ethanol is powered (sorry) by the kinds of engines that need it. But it seems like if we hadn't had the oil crisis and subsequent negative experience with diesel cars (to save fuel), there would be more of them available and on the road. And diesel engines can run off vegetable oil, with little to no conversion - part of the energy cost with using ethanol.

It's like we're so busy trying to go directly from one extreme (cars powered by crude oil) to the other (cars with batteries) that we're missing this huge opportunity in the middle. Powering cars fueled by oil, extracted (not refined) from beans, grown in a field. Something that would massively benefit both red and blue states.
Yes diesel and bio-diesel are the future.
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 11:35 AM   #35
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Yes diesel and bio-diesel are the future.
So what's taking so long, why are we not seeing action on this?

1) Set timelines for corn subsidies to switch over to some oil producing plant that corn states can start growing - massively. 2) Set timelines for oil companies to make biodiesel available at increasing percentages of their stations, and 3) set timelines for biodiesel ready cars and trucks and buses to be available purchase. We could even throw in CAFE offsets to sweeten the deal. 4) Set a reasonable and gradual transition period to further incentivize biodiesel and discourage fossil fuels. Say 10 years after some availability target, so cars are replaced along natural life cycles (owners aren't forced to replace early).

Note: obviously any change includes losers who fight the change, so the real question is who is the biggest obstacle of this particular change?
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 01:13 PM   #36
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So what's taking so long, why are we not seeing action on this?

1) Set timelines for corn subsidies to switch over to some oil producing plant that corn states can start growing - massively. 2) Set timelines for oil companies to make biodiesel available at increasing percentages of their stations, and 3) set timelines for biodiesel ready cars and trucks and buses to be available purchase. We could even throw in CAFE offsets to sweeten the deal. 4) Set a reasonable and gradual transition period to further incentivize biodiesel and discourage fossil fuels. Say 10 years after some availability target, so cars are replaced along natural life cycles (owners aren't forced to replace early).

Note: obviously any change includes losers who fight the change, so the real question is who is the biggest obstacle of this particular change?
The first thing is to make Diesel allowed in every state. If I recall correctly there are no diesel pump in NY or NJ
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 04:09 PM   #37
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The first thing is to make Diesel allowed in every state. If I recall correctly there are no diesel pump in NY or NJ
Can you rephrase that? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 04:25 PM   #38
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The first thing is to make Diesel allowed in every state. If I recall correctly there are no diesel pump in NY or NJ
Not according to this ...

http://www.newyorkgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

http://www.newjerseygasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 05:33 PM   #39
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The first thing is to make Diesel allowed in every state. If I recall correctly there are no diesel pump in NY or NJ
That's not true, diesel is available there. In NY, diesel is still over $4 a gallon while regular gas is now about $3.60.
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Old Oct 26, 2013, 11:36 PM   #40
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The first thing is to make Diesel allowed in every state. If I recall correctly there are no diesel pump in NY or NJ
Wait what? Considering nearly even large truck is diesel powered, those pumps are required and available in every state.
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Old Oct 27, 2013, 01:38 AM   #41
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Diesel != Diesel

Atleast back when VW did their PR-Run with the Lupo3L through the USA they had severe problems with US-diesel ruining their modern TDI engine. Heck even most european trucks would have had problems running on that stuff.

+ the pumps are to big to fit into standard car tank-caps.
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Old Oct 27, 2013, 03:54 AM   #42
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My apologies.

In the past you could not buy new diesel vehicles in NYS, the reason was the sulfur content of the fuel diesels couldn't meet emissions it appears that has changed. Diesels look they can now be bought in NYS, I seems that it changed some time in 2012.

Diesel pumps for big rigs are different than pumps for cars and light trucks.
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Old Jun 24, 2014, 08:49 AM   #43
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Heard today on CNN: Red states receive $3 of Federal aid for every $1 in state money they spend. Recently driving through Alabama a road project sign stated that it cost $6M of State money and $22M of Federal money. Apparently the conservatives in these states would rather sink, then rely on richer, more liberal states and their sinister ideas.
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