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Old Aug 15, 2013, 01:17 PM   #26
bradl
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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
I've always held the notion that reparations should just come in the form of a check to black Americans (Caribbean and US citizens).
Would you only go with that, even if it violated a treaty between the government in question and that other nation that held the slaves?

I ask because what about the Indian tribes, specifically, the Five Civilized Tribes (Chickasaw, Choctaw, Cherokee, Creek(Muskogee), and Seminole)? Each one of those tribes held slaves both before and during the US Civil War, with 3 of those 5 tribes fighting for the Confederacy. For terms of ending the war with them, treaties were signed between each nation and the US government, in which one of the terms of the treaties was to free their slaves, and grant them and their descendants the same status and rights as Indians in their respective tribes, including citizenship.

Since those treaties, those tribes have changed their laws and requirements for membership in their tribes, and kicked out/disenfranchised the descendants of those slaves, in violation of their treaties.

By your words, should they just 'get a check' and be done, or should the government call them out on it and tell them to honour their treaties?

BL.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 01:27 PM   #27
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No one forces crime on someone. You can be a dirt poor idiot and not be a criminal (these are all personal choices). You can choose to make your kids go to school and focus. You can choose not to leave your unborn children with a single parent. You can choose to not let your kid dress like a thug and hang out with the wrong crowd. You can even be the President of the United States. I guess you must be under the impression that the majoriy of white people who immigrated to the US weren't dirt poor and sailed in with gold sheet sails and barrels of gold?
Wow, you make it sound so easy breezy. Why aren't you President?

I take it you haven't been to a school that's extremely under budgeted, 30+ kids in a class with only about 12 raggedy texts books to spread around and no heat in the winter being forced to wear heavy coats through out the school session. Yea, it's so easy to get kids to focus.

What's your definition of dress like a thug? And are you willing to flip the bill for what you consider decent attire?

You can be dirt poor without commit crimes? Let's see how long you last if you had kids to feed, and couldn't get a job. Not saying that crime is the the go to resort when things are rough, but you obviously don't understand that some people are in dire situations or believe they are.

You can choose not to leave your unborn kids with a single parent? Really? Cause even plenty of rich white celebs can't even manage that. Your assuming everyone has a crystal ball into the future of their marriage or relationship.

Your very judgmental towards things you know nothing about.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 01:42 PM   #28
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The fundamental flaw is that africans owned african slaves as well.
Why do people like to pretend that only white people owned slaves.
Why do people like to pretend that only africans were enslaved.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 01:54 PM   #29
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The fundamental flaw is that africans owned african slaves as well.
Why do people like to pretend that only white people owned slaves.
Why do people like to pretend that only africans were enslaved.
You touch on my point exactly. There were American Indian tribes that held slaves. That issue was addressed in the Treaty of 1866 for each of those tribes.

Yet those tribes violated that treaty by booting out their freed slaves (who were citizens of those tribes). How would you address that?

BL.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 01:59 PM   #30
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The fundamental flaw is that africans owned african slaves as well.
Why do people like to pretend that only white people owned slaves.
Why do people like to pretend that only africans were enslaved.
And it's not just the white German's who hated and killed Jews. But we all know who the biggest perpetrators are on a large scale, and made the most profound effect. Same can be said about slavery of Africans in modern times. Let's not kid ourselves here.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 02:14 PM   #31
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I want to put the issue of reparations to one side for a minute, because they're a sideshow.

The biggest issue, which many Americans seem largely ignorant of in the sense of truely understanding the consequences, is that, as evil and pernicious as apartheid, you've had generations of law and a state founded on white supremacy.

And what that means is that you've had a small minority of the population deprived of good schools and education, good housing, discriminated against in work, restricted to certain roles in life, explicitly targetted by the justice system... and so on. You reap what you sow. And let's not forget that in living people's memories, not that long ago, the Klan ruled parts of the South.

To quote Ta-Nahesi Coates:

Quote:
As was the case in every Levittown, by Levitt's orders, not a single resident was black. It was not for a shortage of potential black buyers. Black housing demand far exceeded supply. In metropolitan Philadelphia, between 1946 and 1953, only 347 of 120,000 new homes built were open to blacks.

Racial exclusion had perverse economic effects: It created a vast gap between supply and demand. As a result, blacks paid more for housing on average than did whites. In nearly every northern city, black newcomers crammed into old and run-down housing, mainly in dense central neighborhoods left behind by upwardly mobile whites.

This is really sinister. In rhetoric, at the time, America claimed "separate but equal." In effect, what you see is something more like "separate and serfdom." The policy was to keep black people from moving out of ghettos, and to keep them from marketing their labor in competition with whites, unless absolutely necessary. It is not enough to merely understand segregation as a means to keep the "races" separate. Segregation is about rendering black people a permanent underclass. This is not about an amorphous diversity. This is about power.

Part of keeping power out of black hands is turning the community's aspirational class into a bevy of easy marks. You can only imagine what kind of money was made exploiting the dreams of middle class black people trapped in the ghettos of America. That money represents a transfer of wealth from black hands to white hands. It continued unabated from the early 20th century, through the New Deal (which actually aided this process), well into the 1960s.

We spend a great deal of time talking about the black poor, but less talked about is how America for most of its history has actively punished black ambition. The black middle class has been the field for demonstrations upon the subject of what happens to "ni**ers with ideas." Any history of race riots in America will note that the targets are invariably institutions of black improvement -- churches, "black wall streets," schools, homes, etc. it's worth considering what message a country sends to a people when it persecutes ambition.

And it's worth thinking about how this country thought about black citizenship. William Levitt pitched homeownership as act of patriotism:

No man who owns his own house and lot can be a Communist. He has too much to do.

When a nation excludes a people from the process of patriotism, what is it saying to them?

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...wealth/272775/

And to sit here and read the occasional immature braying voices of young white privilege, ignorant of the deck that's been deliberately stacked your way and the way that deck has shaped millions of people and the children of their children... some of you have absolutely no idea what's been done in your name.

You don't know where you've come from and you don't know where you're going; your need to remain unenlightened in your bubbles of self-admiration for nothing you've achieved on your own, is why you're ripe targets for contempt and mockery.

Some of us can read you like an open book. It's pitiful.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 02:38 PM   #32
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Totally disagree with this. We African-Americans have only wallowed in relative poverty and lack of education because we have allowed ourselves to do so, rather than taking responsibility for our own state of being and collectively changing it from within our own communities. While it might be argued that we continually look for someone else (government, wealthy whites, etc) to fix our problems for us because we still harbor remnants of a slave culture mentality, a history of slavery is no excuse for not handling our cultural business effectively.

That being said, the fact remains that stolen property (in this case the vast productivity of entire generations of lives) should still be returned to its rightful owners or their descendants under any truly moral or ethical regime.

>
Yes indeed. At times, it's that group that still thrives well in droves here in Baltimore City Maryland (no shame in mentioning this) and it's those individuals that tend to be the most vocal and backward thinking about issues, as a result, we get folks that don't want to listen to some of the pressing matters that deal with race in America.

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I do believe that this is going to stop in the very near future, there are voices now in Germany which are begining to say enough is enough.
The old emotional blackmail only worked on the generation directly who were directly responsible and those born soon after WWII, but children and young adults of todays modern Germany don't see any duty to pay.
Yes, there does have to come a time when the payments and the lawsuits end indeed.

This isn't in reference to the previously quoted comment, but it fits better if I write it here. There does need to be a form that doesn't involve checks handed over to any joe schmoe with dark skin.

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I mean, I can't say whether or not exactly, it was somewhat of a foolish comment. I'll admit it. I was trying to get that there are more important issues that directly affect people at this moment, like bullying. But the point I was trying to make is that if people expect every wrong to be righted, it would just not work... There's too many wrongs in this world. Someone's grandchildren paying for the wrongs of their grandparents to someone who wasn't wronged just doesn't click with me. The earliest both sides of my family got to America is the 1920's. So just because I'm white and my family weren't slaves, I should have to pay far off descendants of slaves who were never slaves?
Yes, that's why there's a reference to the other atrocities. Because there is an entire country of people still paying reparations to not just individuals still filing lawsuits, but to the country of Israel for people that have passed on, many of which passed on shortly after the start of WWII sadly.

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Another difference in comparing this to the Holocaust, Japanese internment, etc. is that there are living victims of these atrocities that have direct proof of their losses. Even people who weren't alive during this time could possibly prove through documentation shops or property that were taken from their family...
The bigger issue is trying to get folks to recognize the systematic racism that occurred in the early 1900's as proof. At that point, I can point to my own grandparents, parents, aunts, and uncles as living victims.

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That's a lot different than "My great great grandfather is a slave and that's why I'm poor today. I deserve some money."
No one has ever said this . . . . unless in jest.

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Originally Posted by bradl View Post
By your words, should they just 'get a check' and be done, or should the government call them out on it and tell them to honour their treaties?

BL.
Sorry, I should have made that transition clearer. The next sentence contradicts myself the way it reads.

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Originally Posted by Digital Skunk View Post
In the circles and discussion I did have on the topic I've always been the proponent of forms of economic and community stimulus.
In my early college days I was a "give us a check" thinker. After discussing the issue more, and hearing from those better versed on the matter I've come to realize that it's a terrible idea. Not because folks will be paying for their own reparations, or because no one that's paying has ever owned slaves, but because any form of reconciliation needs to have lasting effects.

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Originally Posted by ThisIsNotMe View Post
The fundamental flaw is that africans owned african slaves as well.
Why do people like to pretend that only white people owned slaves.
Why do people like to pretend that only africans were enslaved.
And all three points are moot. The biggest reason why is because it's about more than just slavery.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 03:23 PM   #33
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...

And to sit here and read the occasional immature braying voices of young white privilege, ignorant of the deck that's been deliberately stacked your way and the way that deck has shaped millions of people and the children of their children... some of you have absolutely no idea what's been done in your name.

You don't know where you've come from and you don't know where you're going; your need to remain unenlightened in your bubbles of self-admiration for nothing you've achieved on your own, is why you're ripe targets for contempt and mockery.

Some of us can read you like an open book. It's pitiful.
You know, a lot of white folk in the past, were forced to send their kids down coal mines, or were press ganged onto ships, or forced to work as slaves in work houses, died in droves because of deadly work conditions, starved to death or died of illness because they had no money.

The majority of white folk in the past had a crappy deal too, because the majority were poor exploited by the elite rich ruling class.

You make it sound like the majority of white folk can trace their roots to a rich plantation owner, rather than a lineage of unremarkable manual workers or serfdom.

There is only a tenuous argument that the descendent of a plantation owner or a company that had slavery dealings should be looked to for reparations.
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 04:09 PM   #34
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I want to put the issue of reparations to one side for a minute, because they're a sideshow.

The biggest issue, which many Americans seem largely ignorant of in the sense of truely understanding the consequences, is that, as evil and pernicious as apartheid, you've had generations of law and a state founded on white supremacy.

And what that means is that you've had a small minority of the population deprived of good schools and education, good housing, discriminated against in work, restricted to certain roles in life, explicitly targetted by the justice system... and so on. You reap what you sow. And let's not forget that in living people's memories, not that long ago, the Klan ruled parts of the South.

To quote Ta-Nahesi Coates:




And to sit here and read the occasional immature braying voices of young white privilege, ignorant of the deck that's been deliberately stacked your way and the way that deck has shaped millions of people and the children of their children... some of you have absolutely no idea what's been done in your name.

You don't know where you've come from and you don't know where you're going; your need to remain unenlightened in your bubbles of self-admiration for nothing you've achieved on your own, is why you're ripe targets for contempt and mockery.

Some of us can read you like an open book. It's pitiful.
Nah, I think the victimization tour is the real sideshow.

If something was stolen from us - and there is no doubt that generations of labor value were stolen from many of our ancestors - then that thing should be returned to its rightful owners, because that's the morally and ethically appropriate course of action.

But claiming that our suffering was somehow greater than that of others, or that white Americans don't understand their history, or that our suffering under racist oppression has disadvantaged us more than others have been disadvantaged by their own particular misfortunes is just plain ignorant.

>
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Old Aug 15, 2013, 11:38 PM   #35
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Wow, you make it sound so easy breezy. Why aren't you President?

I take it you haven't been to a school that's extremely under budgeted, 30+ kids in a class with only about 12 raggedy texts books to spread around and no heat in the winter being forced to wear heavy coats through out the school session. Yea, it's so easy to get kids to focus.

What's your definition of dress like a thug? And are you willing to flip the bill for what you consider decent attire?

You can be dirt poor without commit crimes? Let's see how long you last if you had kids to feed, and couldn't get a job. Not saying that crime is the the go to resort when things are rough, but you obviously don't understand that some people are in dire situations or believe they are.

You can choose not to leave your unborn kids with a single parent? Really? Cause even plenty of rich white celebs can't even manage that. Your assuming everyone has a crystal ball into the future of their marriage or relationship.

Your very judgmental towards things you know nothing about.
Coming from a town of about 700 and attending a school of about 180 students I know quite a bit about low budget education. I never saw a new textbook until I hit college.

I love how every white person is assumed to be rich, neither of my parents graduated university and they both worked pretty **** jobs. They worked hard though and it paid off after about 35 years of working.

Many people make easy choices and layer the excuses on thick. And yes all of the previous things I posed are individual choices, and I don't give two ***** what a celebrity is doing. If you leave someone pregnant with your kid and don't pay for it you are a coward.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 12:10 AM   #36
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Coming from a town of about 700 and attending a school of about 180 students I know quite a bit about low budget education. I never saw a new textbook until I hit college.
Your whole town times three could fit in the average school in urban America. Not a comparison at all.

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I love how every white person is assumed to be rich, neither of my parents graduated university and they both worked pretty **** jobs. They worked hard though and it paid off after about 35 years of working.
And who made that assumption? Certainly not me.

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Many people make easy choices and layer the excuses on thick. And yes all of the previous things I posed are individual choices, and I don't give two ***** what a celebrity is doing. If you leave someone pregnant with your kid and don't pay for it you are a coward.
Where the hell is the bold text coming from?

Yes you are right, everything we do is choice. Choice is the result of circumstances, influences, and desires. You make it seem like choice is a bunch of multiple circles to fill in on a test with a #2 pencil. This is reality.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 12:53 AM   #37
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Your whole town times three could fit in the average school in urban America. Not a comparison at all.



And who made that assumption? Certainly not me.



Where the hell is the bold text coming from?

Yes you are right, everything we do is choice. Choice is the result of circumstances, influences, and desires. You make it seem like choice is a bunch of multiple circles to fill in on a test with a #2 pencil. This is reality.
Lets just say a good amount of those reparation checks would be used up on unpaid child support.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 01:58 AM   #38
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I've got a much better idea.

Why don't we take all the money we waste on the "War on Drugs" and spend it on education and job training programs for kids in poor neighborhoods. Rather than spend $50,000 a year to lock up a kid for selling a couple of ounces of pot - why don't we spend it fixing the potholes and other crumbling infrastructure on the street where he lives.

We'd do a heck of a lot more for the people who really need some help in our society if we did that. An education and a chance to make a decent living will do a lot more than simply handing out a check that (in most cases) is going to be frittered away.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 09:36 AM   #39
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I've got a much better idea.

Why don't we take all the money we waste on the "War on Drugs" and spend it on education and job training programs for kids in poor neighborhoods. Rather than spend $50,000 a year to lock up a kid for selling a couple of ounces of pot - why don't we spend it fixing the potholes and other crumbling infrastructure on the street where he lives.

We'd do a heck of a lot more for the people who really need some help in our society if we did that. An education and a chance to make a decent living will do a lot more than simply handing out a check that (in most cases) is going to be frittered away.
You mean stop being the country that is in first place in locking people up and become first place in education? What a silly idea.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 11:38 AM   #40
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I love how every white person is assumed to be rich,
Not a bad stereotype if you ask me. Especially compared to this one you bring up down below:

Also, the more and more I hear the tired mantra of, "I am white and i don't benefit from racism," the more OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary comes to the surface, usually in the form of articles and studies done by . . . . . . . . white people and other non-blacks.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what you or I think. The overall consensus from blacks won't matter to most simply because . . . . racism still exists, and any black trying to impart knowledge will be scorned. So the consensus must come from a non-black, in particular a white individual, which then perpetuates the supremacist model, where one group has the privilege to decide the true, the just, and the culturally valuable.

Not to say that you are wrong or right or whatever, just trying to show that the issue is pretty deep, and surface comments like these only show lack of interest.

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Lets just say a good amount of those reparation checks would be used up on unpaid child support.
Interesting thing is, this study shows that 1) by number and with economic variables REMOVED, blacks and hispanics pay their child support just fine, even with blacks making $900 less overall, and 2) when whites don't pay child support, it's more likely because they have a mixed race child.

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....than simply handing out a check that (in most cases) is going to be frittered away.
The truth is, even a check that would be frittered away would do a lot for most impoverished communities. While I don't agree that we should be telling people what to do with their money, I do agree that the reconciliation for slavery, and the torture from Jim Crow and SBE and CoIntel Pro, should be much longer lasting.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 12:01 PM   #41
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Yes you are right, everything we do is choice. Choice is the result of circumstances, influences, and desires. You make it seem like choice is a bunch of multiple circles to fill in on a test with a #2 pencil. This is reality.
...and every circumstance that influences a choice can be a motivator towards making either a positive choice or a negative choice in equal measure.

Poverty is one of the greatest motivators for good decision making, just as it is one of the greatest motivators for poor decision making. Thus it is no excuse for poor decision-making.

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 02:29 PM   #42
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Poverty is one of the greatest motivators for good decision making, just as it is one of the greatest motivators for poor decision making. Thus it is no excuse for poor decision-making.

>
44 seconds in on Trailer 1 and the former drug dealer says just that.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 03:05 PM   #43
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I've got a much better idea.

Why don't we take all the money we waste on the "War on Drugs" and spend it on education and job training programs for kids in poor neighborhoods. Rather than spend $50,000 a year to lock up a kid for selling a couple of ounces of pot - why don't we spend it fixing the potholes and other crumbling infrastructure on the street where he lives...

Better idea:

Giving it back to the people who earned it and letting them decide what to do with it


Even better idea that is more morally and ethically sound:


Not taking it from them in the first place

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 06:05 PM   #44
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...and every circumstance that influences a choice can be a motivator towards making either a positive choice or a negative choice in equal measure.

Poverty is one of the greatest motivators for good decision making, just as it is one of the greatest motivators for poor decision making. Thus it is no excuse for poor decision-making.

>

That all sounds good on paper and is the best outlook on life. But in real life, people go through emotions of desperation, panic, survival, and etc.

I'm not advocating what's wrong or right, I'm just speaking on realistic cause and effect. Blame does not solve much, an understanding of situations solves a lot.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 08:06 PM   #45
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That all sounds good on paper and is the best outlook on life. But in real life, people go through emotions of desperation, panic, survival, and etc.

I'm not advocating what's wrong or right, I'm just speaking on realistic cause and effect. Blame does not solve much, an understanding of situations solves a lot.
This isn't about blame. In real life, taking responsibility for your situation and changing your decision-making process accordingly is what solves problems. That's called understanding yourself and your real relationship to a world that really doesn't owe you anything. And it happens to be the way out of poverty.

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 08:24 PM   #46
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This isn't about blame. In real life, taking responsibility for your situation and changing your decision-making process accordingly is what solves problems. That's called understanding yourself and your real relationship to a world that really doesn't owe you anything. And it happens to be the way out of poverty.

>
Again that's true. But yet again that's not the reality of the world we live in. People in general will never put full blame on themselves for most failures or crappy living situations. That's just a fact of life. Also many are raised to be that way. There are so many variables holding people back from depression, lack of knowledge, and in many cases it actually is an external source helping the situation worsen. People are not machines.
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 01:38 AM   #47
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Interesting thing is, this study shows that 1) by number and with economic variables REMOVED, blacks and hispanics pay their child support just fine, even with blacks making $900 less overall, and 2) when whites don't pay child support, it's more likely because they have a mixed race child.



The truth is, even a check that would be frittered away would do a lot for most impoverished communities. While I don't agree that we should be telling people what to do with their money, I do agree that the reconciliation for slavery, and the torture from Jim Crow and SBE and CoIntel Pro, should be much longer lasting.
Those studies from 2002 show an abysmal rate of child support compliance, but what we really need to look at is the amount of black single mothers. I believe the percentage was in the mid 70s for black female mothers. That means less than 30% of black kids will grow up with two parents, usually their deadbeat dad is the one missing. Can't think of any cultural problems that might cause.

From huffington post

Quote:
The birthrate among single mothers also varied along educational, socioeconomic and racial barriers. Sixty-eight percent of black women who had given birth in the past year were unmarried, compared to 11 percent of Asian women, 43 percent of hispanics and 26 percent of non-Hispanic whites
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Old Aug 20, 2013, 10:38 AM   #48
Digital Skunk
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Those studies from 2002 show an abysmal rate of child support compliance, but what we really need to look at is the amount of black single mothers. I believe the percentage was in the mid 70s for black female mothers. That means less than 30% of black kids will grow up with two parents, usually their deadbeat dad is the one missing. Can't think of any cultural problems that might cause.

From huffington post
Oh, a whole heck of a lot. But the rate of deadbeat fathers wasn't the point of my post.

It was that statistically, unpaid child support isn't a black only issue, and when looking at the statistics, even from 2002:

- most that don't pay child support, never will
- those that do will continue to do so
- Black aren't the only ones paying child support
- minority mothers that collect child support collect less than their white counterparts
- white males that owe child support to minority mothers are less likely to pay.

The comment about reparations to blacks would only go to unpaid child support was just downright ignorant.

I wouldn't expect anything more given the tone on these forums.
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