Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Jan 11, 2014, 08:19 PM   #476
chown33
macrumors 603
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Certainly appears undecided in the scientific community to me.
Your quote is in answer to this question:
What causes Homosexuality/Heterosexuality/Bisexuality?
No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice. Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality. Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.
http://www.psychiatry.org/mental-hea...al-orientation

Note that nowhere in the quote does it say anything about choice, only about causes or etiology (look up the term if one doesn't know it).

And yes, the text of that particular paragraph is the same as the 2002 quote (readers can check, which is why I provided the link).


If you download the "Sexual Orientation" PDF from here:
http://www.psychiatry.org/mental-hea...acts-brochures

we read:
What Causes Sexual Orientation?
The causes of sexual orientation and homosexuality are unknown. Studies have suggested both genetic and non- genetic factors. Sexual attraction (whether gay or straight), in fact, might have several origins including genetic factors for some people, environmental factors for others, or some combinations of these factors for yet others. Most mental health professionals believe that sexual orientation is determined for most people early in life, or even before birth, and therefore is not chosen. No particular pattern or style of parenting has been shown to cause homosexuality. [Bold added.]
Note that this answer addresses both the cause (unknown) and whether it's chosen (generally recognized as not chosen). The latter is something the other answer does not address at all.

And chrono1081 posted this:
American Medical Association and American Psychological Association agree its not a choice, as does every other scientific study. [Bold added]
I'm not addressing the "every other scientific study" question, but it does appear that you didn't answer the "is it a choice" question with your quote.


I'll also point out that "present from birth" is not the same as "genetic in origin". The word for "present from birth" is congenital. Because something can be congenital but not genetic, or congenital but not entirely genetic.
chown33 is offline   2
Old Jan 11, 2014, 08:20 PM   #477
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post
Yes. I am. Along with a cemetery. And a trail center.

Living there from birth to 24 gives me much better perspective than you.

BL.
Now I'm convinced you don't know the difference between an LDS temple and a meeting house.
giantfan1224 is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 08:23 PM   #478
bradl
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Now I'm convinced you don't know the difference between an LDS temple and a meeting house.
Believe what you want. Unless you have been to omaha, you don't know. I suggest taking a trip there.

And I'm still waiting for that link. Chop chop.

BL.
bradl is online now   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 08:33 PM   #479
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post
Believe what you want. Unless you have been to omaha, you don't know. I suggest taking a trip there.

And I'm still waiting for that link. Chop chop.

BL.
I have been to Omaha. But I guess I should believe some person on the internet whom I've never met over empirical evidence and recorded history. I should ignore the fact that the first LDS Temple was completed in Kirtland, Ohio, the 2nd in Nauvoo, Il and the third in St. George, Ut in 1877, with no temple ever existing in Nebraska until 2001.

And why should I link you anything that I know you've already decided not to believe, based on the very FACT that you've rejected clear and undeniable links to the presence, or lack thereof, of an LDS temple in Omaha NE prior to 2001? Do you even know why the Winter Quarters temple is so important to the history of the LDS Church? Do you even know what a temple is for?
giantfan1224 is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 08:49 PM   #480
bradl
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
I have been to Omaha. But I guess I should believe some person on the internet whom I've never met over empirical evidence and recorded history. I should ignore the fact that the first LDS Temple was completed in Kirtland, Ohio, the 2nd in Nauvoo, Il and the third in St. George, Ut in 1877, with no temple ever existing in Nebraska until 2001.

And why should I link you anything that I know you've already decided not to believe, based on the very FACT that you've rejected clear and undeniable links to the presence, or lack thereof, of an LDS temple in Omaha NE prior to 2001? Do you even know why the Winter Quarters temple is so important to the history of the LDS Church? Do you even know what a temple is for?
In short, like others here have said, you have nothing.

But I ask now, for a third time, source please.

BL.

Last edited by bradl; Jan 11, 2014 at 08:59 PM. Reason: Third attempt requesting a source
bradl is online now   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 09:04 PM   #481
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post
In short, like others here have said, you have nothing.

But I ask now, for a third time, source please.

BL.
So you missed post #485?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradl View Post
In short, like others here have said, you have nothing.

But I ask now, for a third time, source please.

BL.
This is why this debate with you is so futile. If you are too stubborn and unwilling to admit you are wrong about a fact as easily verifiable and undeniable as an LDS temple in Omaha, how can you expect anyone else to have an open-mind in a discussion on any viewpoint of yours?
giantfan1224 is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 09:54 PM   #482
chrono1081
macrumors 604
 
chrono1081's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Isla Nublar
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
So you missed post #485?

----------



This is why this debate with you is so futile. If you are too stubborn and unwilling to admit you are wrong about a fact as easily verifiable and undeniable as an LDS temple in Omaha, how can you expect anyone else to have an open-mind in a discussion on any viewpoint of yours?
You did the same thing with me. I'm gay, I'm telling you exactly how it is, showed you links to scientific journals and backed up everything I said but you didn't do the same.
__________________
Mac Pro (2010): 3.33Ghz Intel Xeon (6 core) - 24 GB RAM - NVidia Quadro k5000
Macbook Air (2010): 2.13 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo - 4GB RAM
chrono1081 is offline   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 09:54 PM   #483
SLC Flyfishing
macrumors 65816
 
SLC Flyfishing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
This is why this debate with you is so futile. If you are too stubborn and unwilling to admit you are wrong about a fact as easily verifiable and undeniable as an LDS temple in Omaha, how can you expect anyone else to have an open-mind in a discussion on any viewpoint of yours?
This x 1000
__________________
Cognitive Dissonance: "Regardless of how much I hate religion (and I really do hate religion). I do not hate religious people." AP_piano295
"Majority rule doesn't work in mental institutions"
SLC Flyfishing is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:04 PM   #484
.Andy
macrumors 68030
 
.Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Mergui Archipelago
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Do you even know what a temple is for?
If I've read the offer correctly the temples allow me to obtain eternal life in exchange for 10% of my income, abstinence, and rejection of gays.

I can't find any information on a guarantee or warranty and one doesn't seem to get a receipt which is all a bit worrying. Are you sure the whole enterprise is legit?
__________________
Each man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
.Andy is offline   4
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:14 PM   #485
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrono1081 View Post
You did the same thing with me. I'm gay, I'm telling you exactly how it is, showed you links to scientific journals and backed up everything I said but you didn't do the same.
It's hardly the same thing. I aknowledge what you've linked and I'm aware of the opinions that are out there but it is not decided science. Experts still don't agree on what contributes, when and how much. How is that the same as the fact a building does or doesn't exist?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
If I've read the offer correctly the temples allow me to obtain eternal life in exchange for 10% of my income, abstinence, and rejection of gays.

I can't find any information on a guarantee or warranty and one doesn't seem to get a receipt which is all a bit worrying. Are you sure the whole enterprise is legit?
Haha. You so funny.
giantfan1224 is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:17 PM   #486
SLC Flyfishing
macrumors 65816
 
SLC Flyfishing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
It's hardly the same thing. I aknowledge what you've linked and I'm aware of the opinions that are out there but it is not decided science. Experts still don't agree on what contributes, when and how much. How is that the same as the fact a building does or doesn't exist?
Because Chrono said so. Duh!
__________________
Cognitive Dissonance: "Regardless of how much I hate religion (and I really do hate religion). I do not hate religious people." AP_piano295
"Majority rule doesn't work in mental institutions"
SLC Flyfishing is offline   2
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:17 PM   #487
.Andy
macrumors 68030
 
.Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Mergui Archipelago
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Haha. You so funny.
That's not a joke. That's literally what your religion offers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mormon Temple
The primary purpose of the temple is to provide a dedicated place where sacred ordinances needed for eternal life can be preformed. Because of its sacred nature, attendance in the temple is limited to Mormons who obey God's commandments and therefore are worthy to enter.
(P.s. I think the church needs a better proofreader)
__________________
Each man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
.Andy is offline   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:21 PM   #488
xShane
macrumors 6502a
 
xShane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
It's hardly the same thing. I aknowledge what you've linked and I'm aware of the opinions that are out there but it is not decided science. Experts still don't agree on what contributes, when and how much. How is that the same as the fact a building does or doesn't exist?

----------



Haha. You so funny.
Is there any legitimate reason, conservatives, for the most part, are against this issue?
__________________
Macbook Pro 15" 2.6, 8GB, 750GB, 1GB VRAM
"Everything for the people, nothing by the people."

"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
xShane is offline   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 10:42 PM   #489
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by xShane View Post
Is there any legitimate reason, conservatives, for the most part, are against this issue?
For religious reasons I suppose. Those that believe in God and believe he has declared homosexuality relations as being wrong and in violation of his law. It's a belief that many do share, and that many do not. But that's my opinion as to the reason you asked for.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
That's not a joke. That's literally what your religion offers.
Your attempt to belittle and cheapen something that is held sacred by more than a few people does not deserve a legitimate response.
giantfan1224 is offline   2
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:08 PM   #490
.Andy
macrumors 68030
 
.Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Mergui Archipelago
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Your attempt to belittle and cheapen something that is held sacred by more than a few people does not deserve a legitimate response.
You have it completely backwards. Just because something is sacred does not mean it shouldn't be examined or lampooned. Especially when you are using it as a means to attack others and undermine their rights. The very reason those in power try and make things sacred is to not have them challenged. Because they are flimsy and don't hold up to scrutiny. If you can't handle what you believe being held up to examination, the problem lies with fair and squarely you.

Alarm bells should go off when you are sold a promise of eternal life in exchange for undermining the rights of others, a large proportion of your income, and control over you sexually. That is absolutely laughable. If I came to your door and offered that because an angel told me you'd ask me to leave.

In a generation or two when the mormon church finds itself completely on the wrong side of public opinion, you can bet any mention of homosexuality will be jettisoned in exchange for "modernisation" and attracting new people to the congregation. We are seeing it with countless other religions right now (I.e Catholics and gays and purgatory). They are only god's laws as far as they attract followers, money, and power to the church. IMO when they don't accomplish those goals it will be a rapid goodbye.
__________________
Each man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
.Andy is offline   5
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:10 PM   #491
noisycats
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MeijerLand
To Bradl, don't get caught up in the distinctions within the Mormon hierarchy. They view a meeting house, a ward, a stake house, and a temple as very separate entities with different functions. This is becoming a simple war of semantics. I believe your early childhood, though you might be using the terms incorrectly (or not, I wasn't there). And the two are capitalizing on that.
noisycats is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:14 PM   #492
SLC Flyfishing
macrumors 65816
 
SLC Flyfishing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisycats View Post
To Bradl, don't get caught up in the distinctions within the Mormon hierarchy. They view a meeting house, a ward, a stake house, and a temple as very separate entities with different functions. This is becoming a simple war of semantics. I believe your early childhood, though you might be using the terms incorrectly (or not, I wasn't there). And the two are capitalizing on that.
Um, it's more than a simple war of semantics. Bradl is convinced there was an LDS temple in Omaha during his childhood, when information to the contrary was given, he doubled down and essentially said "I was there and you weren't, so I'm right and you are wrong".

I even offered him an out a few pages back (post #445) explaining it might have been a regular meeting house, he didn't take it.
__________________
Cognitive Dissonance: "Regardless of how much I hate religion (and I really do hate religion). I do not hate religious people." AP_piano295
"Majority rule doesn't work in mental institutions"

Last edited by SLC Flyfishing; Jan 11, 2014 at 11:21 PM.
SLC Flyfishing is offline   0
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:15 PM   #493
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Andy View Post
If I came to your door and offered that because an angel told me you'd ask me to leave.
You're right, I would. Because that's ridiculous. And illustrative that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're best practicing silence when it comes to subjects you don't understand.
giantfan1224 is offline   2
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:25 PM   #494
giantfan1224
macrumors 6502a
 
giantfan1224's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisycats View Post
To Bradl, don't get caught up in the distinctions within the Mormon hierarchy. They view a meeting house, a ward, a stake house, and a temple as very separate entities with different functions. This is becoming a simple war of semantics. I believe your early childhood, though you might be using the terms incorrectly (or not, I wasn't there). And the two are capitalizing on that.
Admitting you're wrong when you clearly are, like in the case of a meetinghouse/temple in Omaha, will at least earn you some respect in the debate, and that your intentions are genuine. Bradl's failure to do that-even in a ridiculous argument you think is just semantics--only supports the idea he/she doesn't care to earn the respect of others and therefore doesn't care to be taken seriously.
giantfan1224 is offline   1
Old Jan 11, 2014, 11:28 PM   #495
.Andy
macrumors 68030
 
.Andy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Mergui Archipelago
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
You're right, I would. Because that's ridiculous. And illustrative that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're best practicing silence when it comes to subjects you don't understand.
That'a odd. I could have sworn I just saw you discussing genetics a page or two ago? Presumably you are a geneticist. And you seem to be talking about gays a lot too? Presumably another topic you are intimately acquainted with.

You can try and shut down discussion all you like it won't work. In the end it just illustrates how flimsy superstition is. And a superstition by which you wish to attain eternal life at the expense of the joy and happiness of others.
__________________
Each man's death diminishes me, for I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
.Andy is offline   1
Old Jan 12, 2014, 02:05 AM   #496
bradl
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by giantfan1224 View Post
Admitting you're wrong when you clearly are, like in the case of a meetinghouse/temple in Omaha, will at least earn you some respect in the debate, and that your intentions are genuine. Bradl's failure to do that-even in a ridiculous argument you think is just semantics--only supports the idea he/she doesn't care to earn the respect of others and therefore doesn't care to be taken seriously.
If you've seen the threads I've debated in this forum, you would know where my level of respect lies. But I don't have to justify that to you, or to anyone.

But I digress; back to the debate.

Florence Mill

You'll see that the mill and Winter Quarters were named a Nebraska Historic Landmark well before the time you claim.

Furthermore, a look into my personal life:

My first house (where I grew up)

My second home

My godparents home

My elementary school

And you should note the proximity to the Temple and mill.

Oh, wait! The mill!

Thumb resize.
Thumb resize.

Furthermore.. didn't I mention a cemetery? Oh yes, I did:

http://www.historicflorence.org/historicCemeteries.php
Quote:
The Florence area has cemeteries that are from the Mormon era on forward. Some are no longer being used. A great time to visit the cemeteries is during the Memorial Day weekend. It is a good time to pay your respect to our past citizens, whether they were military or not. You will find that the cemeteries look wonderful when there are so many flowers placed on the graves. Many of the graves no longer have descendants that can visit the graves. Even if you don't have any relatives buried in the nearby cemeteries, you can really feel good about life by clipping a few flowers from the garden and placing them in a container to set on an unmarked grave. It could be one of the most important things that you do all year.
But wait! there's more.
Quote:

Mormon Pioneer Cemetery, 3301 State Street

http://www.historicflorence.org/Ceme...onCemetery.php
And what may possibly be at that address? Why, it's Winter Quarters and the Mormon Trail historic Center! Wow! the trail center, and cemetery, all in the same lot! Could it be that they may have had more than one purpose for everything there? Why.. that's blasphemy!!

Certainly a hell of a lot earlier than the 2001 that you and SLC mentioned.. I wonder why? Could it be that all that you know was only given to you in the 21st Century? or are you too stubborn and irrational to the fact that someone may know more historically about the area your religion holds so dearly than what your religion tells you?

So the Mill, and the cemetery. That's two of the three you've been proven wrong on. What will you do should the 3rd one be proven wrong? Are you willing to apologize yourselves? because it sounds to me like it is yourselves that are unwilling to accept anything else except for what you've been told as fact.

Just so you know, most debates don't affect me this way, but you've had me making calls back home about this to not only my parents (high school principal), but a history professor I had, whose cognitive area was 19th and 20th century migration and settlements of the Old West, so I should congratulate you because you've been one of the hardest debates I've been in..

But also realize that you've ****** me off, and when that happens, I get smugly condescending; to the point that the British say "damn, you're more stiff-arsed Brit than we are!".

I'll be getting back in touch with people in the morning, so you may want to have a good thick slice of humble pie ready. You'll need it with all the rotisserie crow you may be stuffing in your mouths.

BL.
bradl is online now   4
Old Jan 12, 2014, 04:42 AM   #497
annk
Administrator
 
annk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Admin note: The number of rules violations in this thread are simply to numerous to deal with without closing the thread and spending a consideration amount of time cleaning it up and issuing moderation reactions.

We'd like to remind members that insulting other members or commenting on the post author rather than contesting a post's content are both examples of how to break the rules.

Edit: Many of the worst offences have now been removed, though much of the bickering remains. We won't however reopen the thread.

Last edited by annk; Jan 12, 2014 at 08:48 AM.
annk is offline   1


Closed Thread
MacRumors Forums > Mac Community > Community Discussion > Politics, Religion, Social Issues

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:13 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC