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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:31 PM   #176
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All of these gun toting morons could buy all the guns they want without restriction and they still wouldn't stand a snowman's chance in hell against the military. But I'd love to see them try.
who do you think the military is comprised of genius....
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:33 PM   #177
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who do you think the military is comprised of genius....
It doesn't have to be comprised of geniuses...
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:36 PM   #178
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It doesn't have to be comprised of geniuses...
That was pretty witty and not the least bit smug....That was funny..
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:47 PM   #179
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If our reasoning is that if we ban guns criminals will have them because they don't follow the law, why make any laws? Doesn't that apply to everything?

Why make rape illegal. Rapists are still going to rape....
No that would be more like we should make a man's penis illegal because if they have a penis attached to their body they could perform a rape with it.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 03:48 PM   #180
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If you amend the constitution you can do whatever you want. You can amend the constitution to say all guns are banned. Fine, that's the law of the land. I don't think it's a good idea, but it will then be in the constitution and therefore make Obama's law constitutional.
You can amend the constitution to say all people must wear Hello Kitty backpacks, too. So? I'm not suggesting amending the Constitution to say all people must wear Hello Kitty backpacks. Nor am I suggesting amending the Constitution to say all guns are banned. Here, here's my post again. http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...3&postcount=79 Either my post didn't explain itself clearly, in which case I apologize, or you never actually read it, in which case this conversation is meaningless since you're objecting to thigns I never said.

(And for what it's worth, it's not an idea I'm wedded to, just a framework I thought might be able to satisfy the concerns of as many people as possible, on both sides of the issue. I have no idea if it would actually achieve its goals if implemented.)
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 04:10 PM   #181
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There....you nailed it..
It's actually an important discussion to be had, but everyone except Americans wants to have that discussion. What does it mean to be free? Is freedom different than anarchy? What is the governments role in a society? When is a government encroaching on "freedoms"?
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 04:44 PM   #182
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Since we are talking about the second amendment, it is obvious to anyone with an IQ of at least 80 what I was talking about amending.

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You can amend the constitution to say all people must wear Hello Kitty backpacks, too. So? I'm not suggesting amending the Constitution to say all people must wear Hello Kitty backpacks. Nor am I suggesting amending the Constitution to say all guns are banned. Here, here's my post again. http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...3&postcount=79 Either my post didn't explain itself clearly, in which case I apologize, or you never actually read it, in which case this conversation is meaningless since you're objecting to thigns I never said.

(And for what it's worth, it's not an idea I'm wedded to, just a framework I thought might be able to satisfy the concerns of as many people as possible, on both sides of the issue. I have no idea if it would actually achieve its goals if implemented.)
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 07:48 PM   #183
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I disagree.

GWB didn't amend the Constitution when he implemented FISA and Warrantless Wiretapping; both of which were completely against the 4th Amendment.

BL.

I don't disagree that what some of the patriot act did was act in haste to rush through legislation that is unconstitutional, must like the new guns laws.

It wasn't constitutional when Bush signed it, and it wasn't when Obama continued the Bush policies.

They are not letting a crisis go to waste, pass a law while the fear is still fresh in everyone's minds.
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Old Jan 22, 2013, 08:24 PM   #184
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Just curious...

Seeing as how just about all non-revolver handguns are semiautomatic, what exactly do you mean by that?
I really meant high capacity...really anything that can kill a relatively large number of people in a short amount of time.

I sit here scratching my head why people think other mass killing things should be banned but when it comes to guns all bets are off. Why? I want an answer to that question...and no, I don't want to hear any second amendment crap from anyone because if that is your argument, then go back to a musket or push for access to nuclear and chemical. At least be consistent.

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It also doesn't address the purpose of the 2nd amendment in the first place, to stop a tyrant government. Some seem to think we only need muzzle loaders for that.
You need a heck of a lot more then your semi-automatics to address this. The second amendment was made irrelevant for this purpose long ago simply through technology. As I have pointed out before in these forums, (but no one ever addressed) YOUR ENTIRE LIFE the government has outgunned and outclassed you. Even single waking day of your life. And even before you were born. And guess what? No tyranny arose.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:02 AM   #185
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It's actually an important discussion to be had, but everyone except Americans wants to have that discussion. What does it mean to be free? Is freedom different than anarchy? What is the governments role in a society? When is a government encroaching on "freedoms"?
Nothing to "Discuss" you want to argue..We have an inalienable right to own firearms..You don't..Kinda like penis envy, get over it.....
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:09 AM   #186
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Nothing to "Discuss" you want to argue..We have an inalienable right to own firearms..You don't..Kinda like penis envy, get over it.....
Are you saying there's a correlation between guns and penises? Maybe we are getting somewhere.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 11:30 AM   #187
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Are you saying there's a correlation between guns and penises? Maybe we are getting somewhere.
I was thinking more along the lines of penis's and foreigners.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:41 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Squadleader View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of penis's and foreigners.
Yes there is. Foreign ones are always more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Squadleader View Post
Nothing to "Discuss" you want to argue..
Well... yea, I kinda do. This is an internet forum and MacRumors is degrading more and more into a massive Derp fest.

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We have an inalienable right to own firearms.
Until aliens come and enslave America. Then whose laughing huh? The peaceful country that prefers diplomacy. What are you puny bullets going to do against laser rifles? Silly Americans, no foresight whatsoever.

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You don't..Kinda like penis envy, get over it.....
Wow, I'm so jealous that you don't have to get mandatory training from the police force and military trainers at a reduced cost.

I actually like the NZ laws, they're liberal enough so that anyone can get a gun if they really want to, but if you abuse them you get them taken away for the safety of everybody.

Last edited by MorphingDragon; Jan 23, 2013 at 03:51 PM.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:47 PM   #189
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Well... yea, I kinda do. This is an internet forum and MacRumors is degrading more and more into a massive Derp fest.
Almost as much derp as /r/politics
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 03:53 PM   #190
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Almost as much derp as /r/politics
Almost as Derp as Reddit.

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Old Jan 23, 2013, 04:01 PM   #191
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Almost as Derp as Reddit.

True statement.
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Old Jan 23, 2013, 07:36 PM   #192
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Fascinating article in Time this week about the idea of arming teachers.

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Under sudden attack, the brain does not work the way we think it will. (Police officer Ryan) Millbern has seen grown men freeze under threat, like statues dropped onto the set of a horror movie. He has struggled to perform simple functions at shooting scenes, like unlocking a switch on a submachine gun while directing people to safety. “I have heard arguments that an armed teacher could and would respond to an active shooter in the same way a cop would. That they would hear gunshots, run toward the sound and then engage the shooter,” Millbern writes in an e-mail from Baghdad, where he now works as a bomb-detection K-9 handler. “I think this is very unrealistic.”...
There then follows a description, too long to quote here, of a real-life incident that details what happens to someone mentally and physiologically when they are called upon to actually use a weapon in defense. Upshot: you're tripping on an adrenaline high, your perceptions of time and space are not necessarily reliable, and you can easily make mistakes.

Quote:
When I asked police safety experts how much training would be ideal for teachers or, for that matter, police officers assigned to schools, they offered different estimates. In Arizona, Alexis Artwohl, co-author of the book Deadly Force Encounters and a veteran police psychologist and trainer, recommended a weeklong program with “a lot of practice” and a requirement that participants meet minimum performance standards in order to graduate.

In Ohio, Bill DeWeese, a veteran police officer and head of the National Ranger Training Institute, recommended two to three times that much training, and he pointed out that the best training includes much more than firing a gun. “I’m an avid firearms person and always have been,” he says. “The one thing I’ve learned is that it’s not about possessing firearms. It’s about possessing the skills to read a situation—learning how to adapt and maneuver, to respond to an unexpected, fluid situation.”
So it's not as simple as putting a weapon in someone's hand and giving them a day or two of training. And would it ultimately help?

Quote:
Of the mass shootings that are stopped by others (than teachers or police officers), roughly two-thirds are brought to an end by civilians, according to Ron Borsch, a police officer and trainer in Bedford, Ohio, who has been keeping a database of such incidents since the Columbine shooting. That’s because they are typically the only ones in the immediate vicinity of the shooter. And most of those civilians are unarmed, Borsch has found. In the shooting of Arizona Representative Gabrielle Giffords and 18 others, which happened in just 15 seconds, civilians tackled gunman Jared Loughner, ripped the gun from his hands and confiscated his ammunition.

By then, though, it’s already too late for the victims. Dan Marcou, a former SWAT commander and police officer who was involved in three shootings in Wisconsin, argues that the public’s most important opportunity comes before any shooting starts. Most shooters belong to the communities they target and go through predictable phases before they kill anyone, from fantasizing about the murders to planning them. “We have to pay attention,” he says. “It doesn’t have to be a police officer who fires a shot; sometimes it’s a teacher who comes forward and says, ‘Hey, this guy is really dangerous.’”

By fixating on hypothetical school-yard gunfights, we are choosing to fight in the riskiest arena: the chances that an officer or armed educator will shoot a child by accident are high, as are the chances of arriving officers’ mistakenly shooting anyone seen with a weapon in the ensuing chaos.
From those last paragraphs, it really does seem to bolster the idea that it may be more worthwhile to limit the size of clips and screen people for mental issues. But just arming teachers? It doesn't sound as easy or efficacious as the NRA thinks.

Link to the full article is behind a pay wall, so I'll also attach it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Your brain in a shootout.rtfd.zip (29.5 KB, 2 views)

Last edited by Thomas Veil; Jan 23, 2013 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Added link and attachment
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:03 PM   #193
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No that would be more like we should make a man's penis illegal because if they have a penis attached to their body they could perform a rape with it.
You can rape without a penis.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:08 PM   #194
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You can rape without a penis.
Yeah, but it's just not the same.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:21 PM   #195
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I don't disagree that what some of the patriot act did was act in haste to rush through legislation that is unconstitutional, must like the new guns laws.

It wasn't constitutional when Bush signed it, and it wasn't when Obama continued the Bush policies.

They are not letting a crisis go to waste, pass a law while the fear is still fresh in everyone's minds.
This is the problem. You should not pass laws based on fear, which is a reactionary feeling. That is what got us into hot water with our own interment camps during WW2. As we all know, fear and paranoia are like a disease; once you have it, it spreads like wildfire to everyone else. That's what has us in the bind we're in now. Once it spreads too far and affects way too many people, our unity is dissolved and we are left with anarchy.

I know way too many people here in Vegas, who were from the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan who work in the casinos. And where they work, they wear badges that show their name, and where they are from. Fear and being reactive from 9/11 going forward has visitors not even wanting to look them in the face or be served by them because they see the name and where they are from, and immediately think "terrorist" and that they are going to blow the place up.. to the point where they had to change their badge to say they are from "USA".

Honest people, being treated like a refugee, though they've done nothing wrong, and still get the shaft from people here.

You (general) screw a lot of things up when you are reactive and pass laws based on fear. Something that Bush should have known back then, especially with his military training and the brass he had in his Cabinet.

BL.
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:41 PM   #196
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Agreed, I have a couple of friends who are from Pakistan and one whose family is from Bengali. They have had some comments made to them right after 9/11, I imagine there are still some passive aggressive reactions/comments even today.

I suppose it was a similar fear that made FDR put Japanese Americans in internment camps.


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This is the problem. You should not pass laws based on fear, which is a reactionary feeling. That is what got us into hot water with our own interment camps during WW2. As we all know, fear and paranoia are like a disease; once you have it, it spreads like wildfire to everyone else. That's what has us in the bind we're in now. Once it spreads too far and affects way too many people, our unity is dissolved and we are left with anarchy.

I know way too many people here in Vegas, who were from the Middle East, Afghanistan, and Pakistan who work in the casinos. And where they work, they wear badges that show their name, and where they are from. Fear and being reactive from 9/11 going forward has visitors not even wanting to look them in the face or be served by them because they see the name and where they are from, and immediately think "terrorist" and that they are going to blow the place up.. to the point where they had to change their badge to say they are from "USA".

Honest people, being treated like a refugee, though they've done nothing wrong, and still get the shaft from people here.

You (general) screw a lot of things up when you are reactive and pass laws based on fear. Something that Bush should have known back then, especially with his military training and the brass he had in his Cabinet.

BL.
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