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Old Jun 5, 2013, 12:31 PM   #1
beautifulcoder
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Developer tools without Xcode?

Does anyone have any experience with this? My Apple ID doesn't work on developer.apple.com so I can't confirm this. Also, anyone experience this problem with not being able to log in?

I would hate to have to install a 1.6GB download with a wretched IDE I'd rather not use. All I want is simple command line developer tools!

This is my only stumbling block from switching over to Mac OS X as my dev device.

Last edited by beautifulcoder; Jun 9, 2013 at 07:40 PM. Reason: resolved
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 12:59 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
Does anyone have any experience with this? My Apple ID doesn't work on developer.apple.com so I can't confirm this. Also, anyone experience this problem with not being able to log in?
"Doesn't work" is vague.
  1. Describe what actions you took (what you did).
  2. Describe what you expected to happen.
  3. Describe what actually happened.
  4. Be specific.

Did you register your AppleID as a developer? AFAIK, registration doesn't happen automagically; developer registration is a distinct action. I.e. you don't automatically become a developer simply by creating an AppleID.

Or did you mean you tried to register as a developer with your current AppleID, and it was rejected for some reason? Try contacting Apple Developer Support to see if they can remedy that.

Or did you mean you already registered your AppleID as a developer, and now it won't work when trying to sign in to the Developer Center? Again, try Apple Developer Support.

https://developer.apple.com/support/technical/


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I would hate to have to install a 1.6GB download with a wretched IDE I'd rather not use. All I want is simple command line developer tools!
I don't know what this means.
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 01:12 PM   #3
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I signed in to deverloper.apple.com with my Apple ID. Then it redirected me to sign an Agreement. After that, it said it could not complete my request and told to close the browser. Closing the browser didn't work the second time around.

I mean gcc, g++, make, you know, simple command line tools. According to this it is now possible to avoid Xcode but am not able to confirm this.
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 02:24 PM   #4
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Quo Vadis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
I would hate to have to install a 1.6GB download with a wretched IDE I'd rather not use. All I want is simple command line developer tools!

This is my only stumbling block from switching over to Mac OS X as my dev device.
Jumping to the solution: Why don't you just download the whole thing, ignore Xcode, and use the developer tools? Whatever you're saving (download time, bandwidth) you've already spent in dinking around with trying to be efficient.

Stepping back: What's your ultimate goal? It sounds like you want to develop using a Mac, true? But you don't want to use Xcode? What platform are you targeting for your code for? What does Mac OS X have for developing that your current platform doesn't?
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 03:02 PM   #5
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I'll be using it for web development with a number of web frameworks which tend to be fairly complex to configure. These web frameworks tend to have package systems that every once in a while will require you to compile some native code. This is why fiddling around with Xcode and manually working out the dependencies by clicking things is not optimal for me. If ever I need to reimage or upgrade or setup something I don't want to have to even deal with this. I simply want these command line tools to work and be pretty much out of the way from what I need to do.


I'm currently using Ubuntu and the Debian system is the optimal solution for this. However, I would like to do the same thing on the Mac. Not sure if anyone has any experience with this as I have no experience so my concerns could be completely wrong.
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Old Jun 5, 2013, 04:27 PM   #6
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OSX is based on a BSD kernel and most Open Source software packages will compile on it. You could search for MacPorts or Homebrew. They have pre-compiled binaries for the basic stuff you need.

But let me say this:

Debian and Ubuntu are based around these projects, most of them are packaged and designed to work on Linux based systems. They give you package repositories with dependency tracking for free.

I don't understand why people want to transform their Macs into something they are clearly not targetting. So, if you do not intend to look into Programming for OSX or iOS, why not simply install VMWare, install Linux and do all your great development with proper package managment and so forth.

You can do that on OSX, but you have to bite the bullet and compile most of the stuff yourself, getting stuck on many occasions. I don't see the point.

And it's certainly not "cool", because the only thing you learn from that experience is that it's hard to port open source packages fesigned by people who mostly care about Linux based systems.

(Net BSD "pkgsrc" is far from complete, but it can bootstrap on OSX and the existing packages at least work. You might want to look at that too.)

http://www.pkgsrc.org
http://www.macports.org
http://mxcl.github.io/homebrew/

PS: I've been there, I tried. Install Linux in a VM and be happy. It's way easier.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 07:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
I would hate to have to install a 1.6GB download
Why? Are you that tight on HD space or something? The best way to install command line tools is to do it the 'Mac way'. Install XCode and then install the command line tools (from whatever option it is in xcode to do that). Then, you never have to use XCode again if you don't want to. I use my Mac for web development, among other things, as well. I've only ever started XCode on it once... to download/install the command line tools.

Macs are a very popular platform for web development and everybody installs the command line tools via XCode.

Last edited by mslide; Jun 6, 2013 at 07:28 AM.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 07:29 AM   #8
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You can install just the command line tools.

They are available from the ADC site (post login).

I haven't done it myself.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 08:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mslide View Post
Why? Are you that tight on HD space or something? The best way to install command line tools is to do it the 'Mac way'. Install XCode and then install the command line tools (from whatever option it is in xcode to do that). Then, you never have to use XCode again if you don't want to. I use my Mac for web development, among other things, as well. I've only ever started XCode on it once... to download/install the command line tools.

Macs are a very popular platform for web development and everybody installs the command line tools via XCode.
Xcode is a pretty heavy download... It takes me a few hours to download it normally... If you have a slower connection than me, I can really see why you wouldn't want to download it if all you want is the command line tools.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 10:48 AM   #10
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Why? Are you that tight on HD space or something? The best way to install command line tools is to do it the 'Mac way'.
See, this is my biggest gripe with this. I'm not interested in the 'Mac way'. I have zero appreciation for corporations that shove their agenda down your throat. This leads to technology lock-ins. As pmau already mentioned, Xcode is tailored towards iOS and Mac development. I see absolutely no reason to have to install this if that is not my end goal. I think it is absolutely asinine for Apple to force Xcode on anyone that wants to compile code.

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Originally Posted by pmau View Post
PS: I've been there, I tried. Install Linux in a VM and be happy. It's way easier.
Well Craptasticness!

In lieu of the Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition, I'm really having second thoughts on this. I just don't see the point in running a VM when you can have the real thing. Don't get me wrong, I love Macs but the software needs to be up to par too.

A bit of good news, I was finally able to log in to Apple's developer tools and verified that there are command line tools available for download. Only 150MB.

I just need to research package managers and figure out if they'll cause too much trouble. I really do want this to work out.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 11:27 AM   #11
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See, this is my biggest gripe with this. I'm not interested in the 'Mac way'. I have zero appreciation for corporations that shove their agenda down your throat....
It sounds like what you really want is another Ubuntu system. It will run fine in Apple hardware Do the normal install and you will never need to deal with Mac OS X again.

But really what is wrong with installing Xcode? It gives you gcc, make and so on. Just ignore the GUI part if you are not building Mac or IOS apps.

You can also get gcc, make, the autoconf tools and what not from Mac ports but that is slightly harder.

Seem odd to buy a Mac and then complain that it's a Mac an is loaded with Apple software.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 01:06 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
See, this is my biggest gripe with this. I'm not interested in the 'Mac way'. I have zero appreciation for corporations that shove their agenda down your throat. This leads to technology lock-ins. As pmau already mentioned, Xcode is tailored towards iOS and Mac development. I see absolutely no reason to have to install this if that is not my end goal. I think it is absolutely asinine for Apple to force Xcode on anyone that wants to compile code.
In that case... http://gcc.gnu.org/

Good luck and have fun. I never thought someone would ever be mad at a company for providing a nicely packaged development environment for their platform (that's free and trivial to install) but whatever.

I assume you won't want to use Macports or Homebrew to make this easier because, you know, you wouldn't want someone forcing a specific package management system on you just to install tools to compile code.
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Old Jun 6, 2013, 06:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by pmau View Post
I don't understand why people want to transform their Macs into something they are clearly not targetting. So, if you do not intend to look into Programming for OSX or iOS, why not simply install VMWare, install Linux and do all your great development with proper package managment and so forth.
Why the hell would I install Linux on my Mac, when OSX does the same things natively and possibly better? The only reason to install Linux on Mac is if there are proprietary apps that don't exist for OSX, but most of Linux applications are open source and can be reengineered to work on Mac. And guess what, I'd rather do that and benefit from OSX's superior desktop environment.

Also Xcode can very well be used for cross-platform desktop C/C++ development, it's not just for programming OSX/iOS apps.

Quote:
And it's certainly not "cool", because the only thing you learn from that experience is that it's hard to port open source packages fesigned by people who mostly care about Linux based systems.
Oh yes it is. Nothing like doing Unixy stuff on OSX, a platform often mistaken for being locked down like iOS, the real locked one.

Last edited by printz; Jun 6, 2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old Jun 7, 2013, 02:54 PM   #14
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Homebrew is a big help, instead of trying to build stuff by hand
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 05:22 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
...I mean gcc, g++, make, you know, simple command line tools...
GCC is deprecated in OS X 10.9 and newer. Use clang or the LLVM tools, if possible, and the appropriate debugging tools (not gdb).
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 06:59 PM   #16
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GCC is deprecated in OS X 10.9 and newer. Use clang or the LLVM tools, if possible, and the appropriate debugging tools (not gdb).
Typo or do you actually know stuff about OS X 10.9, the OS X version we've been told we'll first be told about on Monday?
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 07:36 PM   #17
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GCC is deprecated in OS X 10.9 and newer. Use clang or the LLVM tools, if possible, and the appropriate debugging tools (not gdb).
I only mention gcc because I presume open source software is compiled this way through Homebrew. Is this a correct assumption? I have no experience programming on Macs so a lot of my worries surround this fact.

I can barely tolerate the fact I have to compile everything from scratch (reminds me too much of Gentoo - two failed hard drives later coupled with a terrible user experience, I still think this is a wretched idea). But I don't want to waste too much time with this.
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Old Jun 8, 2013, 08:06 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beautifulcoder View Post
I only mention gcc because I presume open source software is compiled this way through Homebrew. Is this a correct assumption? I have no experience programming on Macs so a lot of my worries surround this fact.

I can barely tolerate the fact I have to compile everything from scratch (reminds me too much of Gentoo - two failed hard drives later coupled with a terrible user experience, I still think this is a wretched idea). But I don't want to waste too much time with this.
I thought you said you've already downloaded and installed the command line tools?
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 05:11 AM   #19
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Typo or do you actually know stuff about OS X 10.9, the OS X version we've been told we'll first be told about on Monday?
https://developer.apple.com/library/...40001051-SW216

:-)

I mean, it is obvious, if you see the clang and LLVM development. LLVM and clang get more updates, compared to Apples version of the GCC. The improvements and features in clang and LLVM make the GCC superfluous.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 10:48 AM   #20
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https://developer.apple.com/library/...40001051-SW216

:-)

I mean, it is obvious, if you see the clang and LLVM development. LLVM and clang get more updates, compared to Apples version of the GCC. The improvements and features in clang and LLVM make the GCC superfluous.
So if you are doing anything with open source you'll be working with outdated tools that are not designed to work well on the Mac? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

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I thought you said you've already downloaded and installed the command line tools?
No way, I had not being able to verify this. My OP was a result of the initial frustration of not being able to log in from the corporate network. However, I was final able to setup my account with Apple and verify the existence of these tools from home.

I can't wait for when rMBP gets Haswell, but before I got head first into a $1.6k purchase I would like make sure my investment is worthwhile. This will be my first Mac.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 01:55 PM   #21
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So if you are doing anything with open source you'll be working with outdated tools that are not designed to work well on the Mac? I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
You can use GCC/LLVM/clang from the command line. No problem. However, you should know that the future on OS X (and probably Linux) is probably not a future where the GCC plays a big role.

If you need a current version of the GCC download the source code from:
http://gcc.gnu.org/

I think this is no longer necessary, because LLVM/clang under OS X support all important features and provide enough optimization options.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 03:24 PM   #22
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This is the description for the command line tools.

Quote:
This package enables UNIX-style development via Terminal by installing command line developer tools, as well as Mac OS X SDK frameworks and headers. Many useful tools are included, such as the Apple LLVM compiler, linker, and Make. If you use Xcode, these tools are also embedded within the Xcode IDE, and can be installed on your system using the Downloads preferences pane within Xcode 4.6.2.
So I think we are good here.

Last edited by beautifulcoder; Jun 9, 2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: formatting
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 06:00 PM   #23
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This is the description for the command line tools.



So I think we are good here.
So resolved?
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 07:39 PM   #24
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I believe so. It's down to the Haswell release on both Apple and Dell.

P.S. I think Apple will win.
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