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Old Jun 8, 2014, 06:34 PM   #26
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For reference here is a years old thread: A Guide To The Afterlife where I discussed her book. It was pretty neat talking about planning your life beforehand and reviewing your life afterwards. Was she sincere? Who knows, she might have been a big fat huckster.
Well I am not sure about what you believe, but I think if we are here to learn something I think we would certainly want to review our life here on Earth after we have passed over. I do believe we review our lives after we have passed over, and I have heard stories when people have experienced near death experiences explain it's as if they saw their entire life flash in their mind in the space of a few seconds. But, like anything you read or hear, it is best to take it with a pinch of salt until or unless you have experienced it yourself.

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But when it comes to wishful thinking, I like the idea that you don't have to come back for another go at what we call (physical) life.
Well, first, do bear in mind our perceptions of the world are influenced largely by the world around us, the environment (culture, people, etc.), our brain, and so on (I could go on here). I might say to myself right now that I never want to come back to Earth for another life after this, but in the spirit world we don't have the restrictions we have in a physical body and the environmental and cultural circumstances that can influence what we think and what we believe. If the whole point of a life here on Earth is to learn, you are not going to learn what you want to learn if you decide not to have this life. Do you understand where I am going here?

That said, I don't think it would be possible to learn everything we might want to possibly learn spiritually in just one life, and I do believe many of us have many lives over hundreds or even thousands of years. Most people interested in spiritualism agree that spirit guides have had at least one Earthly life because in order to help you, as a person on Earth, your spirit guide(s) should ideally have some experience of their own so they can help you on your life on Earth. During the stage when you are planning your life, a spirit guide or spirit guides who will be with you throughout your entire life would be there helping you plan and map your life and various events that you want to happen to learn what you want to learn. In itself this is very deep so it is best not to think too much into it - e.g., why people choose to have bad lives? It's something I wish I had the answer to but I don't, and perhaps is something I may never understand. You have to live your life and enjoy it and not get bogged down, you know?

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I've already said this, what does not excite me about the concept of reincarnation is being on a never ending treadmill cycling through Earth multiple times. If I speculate about the purpose, it becomes very confusing. Let's say you have a spirit which is the real you. But when your spirit attaches to an embryo, you have no former knowledge or memory and on the next cycle, whatever you learned this time is forgotten for the next go, unless somehow an adjustment is made to your basic stats. Are spirits as flawed as humans or is this just the ultimate role playing game called the Earth Simulator and you are assigned handicaps and setbacks to overcome? For the Atheists listening, this is just fun nonsense. Don't pay it any mind.
I'm finding it hard to understand what you are trying to say. If your question is whether we can remember our past lives, I believe we can (e.g. through past life regression). I have heard many people say the same thing - they are able to remember their past lives, but never their life in the spirit world. Some believe it is because this aspect is intentionally forgotten while we are on Earth which we remember once we have passed over.

Huntn, we won't find all the answers to all of lives mysteries and perhaps some questions will never be answered on Earth and only once we pass over. There is no point in thinking too deeply about things that seem to have a dead end, you have to also enjoy your material life. There is a line in a song from the 90s (I won't mention what it is to avoid embarrassment) that says: "too much of something, is bad enough". Don't think too deeply about things you don't have the answer to .
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 06:37 PM   #27
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For a starter see post #1 in this thread and the link to a report and a quote identified as page76, to read about Gretchen. It's a long PDF document. It's authenticity is unproven.
I've read a little on Gretchen and Stevenson's attempts to verify the case. I find it interesting, but remain skeptical.

Skeptics Dictionary has a page on Ian Stevenson that provides a good amount of details about the man and his work (plus links to other articles/books about Stevenson's work) from which an excerpt follows:

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Those who want to believe in survival of a personality after death will likely ignore the weaknesses in Stevenson's methods and praise him for his meticulousness, his devotion to detail, his zeal to get every claim verified or disproved. For my part, I have to agree with Stevenson's own assessment of his work: he's provided evidence, but no compelling evidence for reincarnation. I see no way to move forward using his methods or his data, so I see his work as a colossal waste of time. On the positive side, however, I agree with him that past life regressive therapy, which uses hypnosis, is rife with methodological problems, not the least of which is the problem with suggestion contaminating any evidence that might be uncovered for a past life. Hence, past life regression cannot provide good evidence for reincarnation. Neither can collecting more stories from children who claim to have lived previous lives unless better methods of documentation, questioning witnesses and alleged experiments, and verifying claims are developed.
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 06:44 PM   #28
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I've read a little on Gretchen and Stevenson's attempts to verify the case. I find it interesting, but remain skeptical.

Skeptics Dictionary has a page on Ian Stevenson that provides a good amount of details about the man and his work (plus links to other articles/books about Stevenson's work) from which an excerpt follows:
The skeptic does not really address how a person who knows no German can speak it under hypnosis. This is either fraud or fact, and if fact there is an unknown mechanism at work.
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 06:48 PM   #29
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The skeptic does not really address how a person who knows no German can speak it under hypnosis. This is either fraud or fact, and if fact there is an unknown mechanism at work.
Perhaps.

But the truth is you don't know the mechanism either and haven't proved reincarnation.

The skeptic does not fill in gaps of understanding with unsubstantiated speculation.

They wait for more evidence.
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 07:19 PM   #30
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The skeptic does not really address how a person who knows no German can speak it under hypnosis. This is either fraud or fact, and if fact there is an unknown mechanism at work.
Why the either/or conclusion? Perhaps there's an explanation that hasn't been discovered, that doesn't involve reincarnation.

Apparently, everyone Stevenson talked with claimed she wasn't exposed to people speaking the German language but doesn't rule out the possibility, for example, that she was somehow exposed to it and simply can't consciously remember overhearing a neighbor sitting on his porch singing a variety of songs in German every night when she was very young.
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 08:02 PM   #31
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Well I am not sure about what you believe, but I think if we are here to learn something I think we would certainly want to review our life here on Earth after we have passed over. I do believe we review our lives after we have passed over, and I have heard stories when people have experienced near death experiences explain it's as if they saw their entire life flash in their mind in the space of a few seconds. But, like anything you read or hear, it is best to take it with a pinch of salt until or unless you have experienced it yourself.

Well, first, do bear in mind our perceptions of the world are influenced largely by the world around us, the environment (culture, people, etc.), our brain, and so on (I could go on here). I might say to myself right now that I never want to come back to Earth for another life after this, but in the spirit world we don't have the restrictions we have in a physical body and the environmental and cultural circumstances that can influence what we think and what we believe. If the whole point of a life here on Earth is to learn, you are not going to learn what you want to learn if you decide not to have this life. Do you understand where I am going here?

That said, I don't think it would be possible to learn everything we might want to possibly learn spiritually in just one life, and I do believe many of us have many lives over hundreds or even thousands of years. Most people interested in spiritualism agree that spirit guides have had at least one Earthly life because in order to help you, as a person on Earth, your spirit guide(s) should ideally have some experience of their own so they can help you on your life on Earth. During the stage when you are planning your life, a spirit guide or spirit guides who will be with you throughout your entire life would be there helping you plan and map your life and various events that you want to happen to learn what you want to learn. In itself this is very deep so it is best not to think too much into it - e.g., why people choose to have bad lives? It's something I wish I had the answer to but I don't, and perhaps is something I may never understand. You have to live your life and enjoy it and not get bogged down, you know?

I'm finding it hard to understand what you are trying to say. If your question is whether we can remember our past lives, I believe we can (e.g. through past life regression). I have heard many people say the same thing - they are able to remember their past lives, but never their life in the spirit world. Some believe it is because this aspect is intentionally forgotten while we are on Earth which we remember once we have passed over.

Huntn, we won't find all the answers to all of lives mysteries and perhaps some questions will never be answered on Earth and only once we pass over. There is no point in thinking too deeply about things that seem to have a dead end, you have to also enjoy your material life. There is a line in a song from the 90s (I won't mention what it is to avoid embarrassment) that says: "too much of something, is bad enough". Don't think too deeply about things you don't have the answer to .
Don't get the wrong idea. I am not obsessed with the notion, just starting with the idea of spirit, and attempting to take a logical approach regarding how lessons could be learned and built upon for the next cycle. Or would each cycle be completely independent on what came before it? Unknown.

This speculation is off the wall but who cares. Here goes- If the idea of spirits are accepted, spirits that attach to a physical body, there could be place holder, in essence artificial spirits that trigger events, or provoke crises, or just take up space. How would any of us know?

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I've read a little on Gretchen and Stevenson's attempts to verify the case. I find it interesting, but remain skeptical.

Skeptics Dictionary has a page on Ian Stevenson that provides a good amount of details about the man and his work (plus links to other articles/books about Stevenson's work) from which an excerpt follows:
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Perhaps.

But the truth is you don't know the mechanism either and haven't proved reincarnation.

The skeptic does not fill in gaps of understanding with unsubstantiated speculation.

They wait for more evidence.
For you and Localoid, no issue here. Xenoglossy or unknown mechanisms, while the former provides a convenient explanation for reincarnation, it does not prove anything.

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Originally Posted by Localoid View Post
Why the either/or conclusion? Perhaps there's an explanation that hasn't been discovered, that doesn't involve reincarnation.

Apparently, everyone Stevenson talked with claimed she wasn't exposed to people speaking the German language but doesn't rule out the possibility, for example, that she was somehow exposed to it and simply can't consciously remember overhearing a neighbor sitting on his porch singing a variety of songs in German every night when she was very young.
I suspect that listening to songs does not make a person fluent. But there is no proof and you are right other explanations are possible. I can't say I believe, I have no vested interest other than desire, and I admit to leaning towards these explanations but am willing to accept, if and when this premise is accurately debunked, because ultimately I seek truth.
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Old Jun 8, 2014, 09:00 PM   #32
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...I suspect that listening to songs does not make a person fluent.
I doubt if many would become "fluent" but think it might be reasonable to believe that, given the right conditions, some might begin to relate phrases in a given "foreign" language to phrases in their native tongue. For example, if you hear a given folk song sung in German, then hear it again sung in English, hear it repeated many times over a period of time a person could develop a very basic understanding of at least a few words and phrases.

Some children would probably be quicker to pick up and decoding the patterns of language than others...

Researchers at Georgetown University Medical Center have found evidence that the processing of music and language depend on some of the same brain systems. One system, based in the temporal lobes, helps humans memorize information in both language and music— for example, words and meanings in language and familiar melodies in music.

We've had cases of young children being able to play Mozart concertos, who didn't have formal training in music, who couldn't read music. Mozart himself was said to have memorized several minuets for the clavichord by age three. Some (few) children can apparently listen to complex music, and somehow remember it in great detail enough to go about the process of "translating" the sound they've "recorded" in their brain, and then go about the process of "picking out" the correct musical notes well enough, on say a piano, to be able to perform the song.

Somehow, these children have the ability to memorize music, much easier than the average adult. If common centers of the brain are involved, is it unreasonable to speculate that some children might find they can easily begin to memorize and understand a given foreign language, if they are exposed to said language?

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But there is no proof and you are right other explanations are possible. I can't say I believe, I have no vested interest other than desire, and I admit to leaning towards these explanations but am willing to accept, if and when this premise is accurately debunked, because ultimately I seek truth.
The "truth" can be elusive. I try to remain open to possibilities, but some seem more logical than others.
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Old Jun 9, 2014, 01:08 AM   #33
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I doubt if many would become "fluent" but think it might be reasonable to believe that, given the right conditions, some might begin to relate phrases in a given "foreign" language to phrases in their native tongue. For example, if you hear a given folk song sung in German, then hear it again sung in English, hear it repeated many times over a period of time a person could develop a very basic understanding of at least a few words and phrases.

Some children would probably be quicker to pick up and decoding the patterns of language than others...

Researchers at Georgetown University Medical Center have found evidence that the processing of music and language depend on some of the same brain systems. One system, based in the temporal lobes, helps humans memorize information in both language and music— for example, words and meanings in language and familiar melodies in music.

We've had cases of young children being able to play Mozart concertos, who didn't have formal training in music, who couldn't read music. Mozart himself was said to have memorized several minuets for the clavichord by age three. Some (few) children can apparently listen to complex music, and somehow remember it in great detail enough to go about the process of "translating" the sound they've "recorded" in their brain, and then go about the process of "picking out" the correct musical notes well enough, on say a piano, to be able to perform the song.

Somehow, these children have the ability to memorize music, much easier than the average adult. If common centers of the brain are involved, is it unreasonable to speculate that some children might find they can easily begin to memorize and understand a given foreign language, if they are exposed to said language?



The "truth" can be elusive. I try to remain open to possibilities, but some seem more logical than others.
I applaud your openness. Others express, if they can't see it, it can't possibly exist.
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Old Jun 9, 2014, 03:27 PM   #34
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This speculation is off the wall but who cares. Here goes- If the idea of spirits are accepted, spirits that attach to a physical body, there could be place holder, in essence artificial spirits that trigger events, or provoke crises, or just take up space. How would any of us know?
I think it is a good idea to stay grounded with your opinions and not go too far off the wall. I avoid reading too much into these kinds of philosophical topics, because it can easily overwhelm you. Personally, if I was advising myself, I would say you have got to stay grounded with what you believe. I'm not saying "be ignorant and ignore others," but at the very least be mindful with what you take in.
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Old Jun 9, 2014, 03:39 PM   #35
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I think it is a good idea to stay grounded with your opinions and not go too far off the wall. I avoid reading too much into these kinds of philosophical topics, because it can easily overwhelm you. Personally, if I was advising myself, I would say you have got to stay grounded with what you believe. I'm not saying "be ignorant and ignore others," but at the very least be mindful with what you take in.
Technically this was not an expressed opinion. But I was starting with an accepted religious concept, the soul attaching to a physical body, then admit to running with this, speculating possibilities suitable for a good scifi movie. Unfortunately I've let the cat out of the bag and someone will steal my idea for the next blockbuster.
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