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Old Oct 6, 2012, 09:40 AM   #76
junhong
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobsian View Post
Interesting posts guys. Quu any thoughts on Junhong's idea of a fanless Haswell Air? I can't imagine it (based on nothing scientific) but would love to see it too!

Anyone else have any thoughts on this possibility? For some reference, the new iPad's TDP seems to be in the 5W range from a brief google search.
Forgot to add more info, it may not happen in Haswell, but maybe in future products, since Haswell is in 22nm, Broadwell will be in 14nm. The smaller the fabrication process the higher chance we could be seeing a fanless Air.

Intel is pushing heavily on its own tablet SoC, Haswell's feature and architecture is tuned more for better power efficiency. Not to mention Intel's fab technology is usually 2 or more years ahead of others(Samsung, TSMC, GlobalFoundries), that alone guarantee them lots of advantage.

One day we may even see Apple using Intel's tablet bound SoC in MBA, if the performance and heat production is in check. Just hope Intel went insane and integrate everything from WiFi chip and Thunderbolt controller into one, the logic board will just be one thin long strip of chips.

Maybe who knows, native iOS development on the iPad itself in a few years
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Old Oct 6, 2012, 09:49 AM   #77
magbarn
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Originally Posted by Quu View Post
I don't think they will remove the fan from the air but I would expect it to be off until you do some hard work on it.
I really doubt your fanless design will come to fruition as not everyone will use their MBA in a well ventilated area. The casing will also get quite hot as the heat can only get out by radiating it. The 30% graphics improvement for the air IMHO is also disappointing as the 100% faster GT3 goodness is only reserved for full powered Haswells, guess well have to wait for another die shrink (Broadwell) before we possibly get true GT3 performance in a ULV CPU
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Old Oct 6, 2012, 10:03 AM   #78
jacob.schmidt
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Originally Posted by Quu View Post
You are totally right. But this is a new architecture, Ivy Bridge wasn't.

What I've done in my upgrades is as follows:

Kentsfield (2006) -> Nahlem (2008) -> Sandy Bridge-E (2011) -> *Haswell

*Will be upgrading to

Which means I only go for the new architectures and do not purchase any architecture that is simply a die shrink like Yorkfield, Westmere and Ivy Bridge as they rarely make a noticeable difference in performance being only "Tick" changes to the architecture while the "Tock" changes are more drastic and worthwhile.
Yeah, you're right and it seems like a good strategy. I don't know, but haven't got any first versions of architecture - 2006, 2008 and 2010 and buying here in 2012. I'm writing a lot so don't really uses the CPU to its max - and therefore never experienced any huge improvements with new architecture. I'm more interested in any redesigns actually (not that is needed, but if it happens)
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Old Oct 6, 2012, 10:11 AM   #79
junhong
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It'll definitely take much longer to come to fruition, perhaps another 3-4 generation(after Haswell, Skylake, etc) since Intel is gunning for ablet SoC market right now, die shrink and better architecture on the horizon

Don't you want a powerful, and fanless Mac? Computing power has come a long way, and there's generally more than enough power for daily usage.

Later who knows, Macbook Air with 12 hours battery life
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:47 AM   #80
lewdvig
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Haswell should offer us a GPU that gives last year's MBP's 6750m a run for its money.

And with rapidly falling SSD pricing I expect my next MBA to have a 512 GB SSD.

IMO that is the perfect PC; a 7 hour battery life, 11" form factor and Borderlands 2 or Skyrim when I have time for some games (and a big enough SSD to store a healthy Windows 7 partition).

----------

but then I read stuff like this on Anand,

"Overall performance gains should be about 2x for GT3 (presumably with eDRAM) over HD 4000 in a high TDP part. In Ultrabooks those gains will be limited to around 30% max given the strict power limits."

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/i...rchitecture/12
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 03:12 AM   #81
kaellar
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Haswell CPUs are the thing we'll see in 2013 Airs anyways =)
What's gonna take me as a buyer is IPS screens in it. Even with the current Airs display resolution. Give me IPS+plasma deposition coating (like in the new iMacs, any journalist seen it in person amazed with) and I'll be extremely happy.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 09:29 PM   #82
unobtainium
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Originally Posted by magbarn View Post
No Retina in MBA until Apple/Display OEM's figure out a way to severely reduce the power usage.
Isn't that the whole point of Haswell (huge power savings)? This might be wishful thinking, but I'm really hoping for a retina display in the MBA next year, along with 802.11ac and better SSD value. That's pretty much my whole wishlist, but if it doesn't happen I'll probably go with an rMBP w/ Haswell.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaellar View Post
Give me IPS+plasma deposition coating (like in the new iMacs, any journalist seen it in person amazed with) and I'll be extremely happy.
I dunno, I was excited about this as well, but I took a look at the new iMacs in an Apple store and was sorta underwhelmed. Once you've played around with the 15" rMBP it's really hard for any other screen to measure up.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 08:23 AM   #83
magbarn
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Originally Posted by unobtainium View Post
Isn't that the whole point of Haswell (huge power savings)? This might be wishful thinking, but I'm really hoping for a retina display in the MBA next year, along with 802.11ac and better SSD value. That's pretty much my whole wishlist, but if it doesn't happen I'll probably go with an rMBP w/ Haswell.

----------

You'll probably end up with a haswell rmbp 13....
Holy thread resurrection lol. If you look at a current laptops energy usage, the screen consumes the vast majority of the juice while in idle. Yes there will be power savings with haswell, but no where near the amount to compensate for the retina display.
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Old Jan 26, 2013, 09:28 AM   #84
mortenandersen
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Not at all a bad idea...!

Quote:
Originally Posted by junhong View Post
Purely speculative: TL,DR incoming

I downloaded iFixit's teardown picture of MBA's logic board, and mess about in MS Paint. Cutting and pasting parts together

http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/n...GJsVaLKcl.huge

So:
1) Haswell has PCH(Platform Control Hub) integrated into CPU, remove that and we get extra space, say 5%?

2) Apple Engineers would be able to use lower TDP CPU(say 10-12W) for same performance, but lower power consumption and heat production compare to IVB. I say same performance because you can't magically have better power versus IVB at lower TDP, unless Intel Engineers are wizards in disguise

3) With the low TDP CPU(10-12W) they can remove the fan, which frees up 20% of the logic space dedicated for the fan. Perhaps a flat heat pipe the run the length of entire logic board to spread out the heat. So it finally lives up to its name: MacBook Air...cooling :P(Don't flame me for a little fun )

4) Taking inspiration from Retina MBP now, vents at the side of the MBA, improve speaker design, maybe the MBA can pump audio through the vents instead. So the speaker hardware can be in one long bar(I shape) instead of the current L shape. So space saving of 10%

5) By now we have 35% extra space(remove PCH, fan, slimdown speaker part), move the CPU to far right, move SSD to sit just beside CPU. Voila, I just reduce the logic board size by 30-40%(since its not entirely rectangle), and we have more space for the battery.

6) And if improved battery capacity/tech in iPad 3 and Retina MBP is used in Haswell MBA, couple with low TDP CPU, could give MBA extra 1-2 hours(low expectation for this as the battery life can be affected by myriads of factor)

7) Infact, while we're at it, why don't we solder the SSD to the logic board too? So now we're saving space in Z-height too, this would benefit the long heatsink I mentioned in Point 3, later who knows? Even thinner MBA if the thinner light guide for keyboard backlight turns out to be true

8) IGZO screen would be sound. Would probably stick with same resolution, but with IPS tech to save power, in terms of consumption and GPU processing. Pushing mad rez need additional power. Or maybe the crazy rumor of RAM in display if user is just reading a still webpage or document(forgot the link to that rumor, its for a non Apple product), may give the CPU and CPU some rest, since Apple micromanage those even between keystroke.

9) My hope is that MBA will be like the iPad, almost completely sealed in(except for speaker port due to obvious reason), the iPad basically use its shell as a big heatsink for air cooling. So with my specualtion above, the Air's unibody shell IS the big heatsink for the CPU. So now you have no worries of a mini leafblower, or Tamiya electric racing motor on your lap Yay for stillness, silence, and grace of Zen(which the late Steve Jobs practice).

Phew...long list. But if everything goes according to my speculation(which it probably won't, sadly ). The MBA will finally lives up to its name. Air cooling, Pro lines uses fan :P

OK bad joke, let me know what you guys think

p/s: No opening for heat venting = no dust buildup that needs cleaning. Apple, It Just Work(tm)
I came across this "old" post, and I think he has a lot of very good, reasonable and indeed possible points. I hope Apple's developers will look seriously into at least some of his points of view.

The very good idea of a venting/cooling system WITHOUT a fan makes a lot of sense to me, and must also, I think, be a doable idea. (BTW, the Sony Vaio P series (a couple of years ago) made it excellent without a fan for cooling,)

I love the idea of having an Air without a fan. Pure silence...
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