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Old Mar 19, 2013, 06:36 AM   #76
dexum175
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Originally Posted by ClassObject View Post
What's so confusing?

I'd rather sit on a comfy leather recliner than a bar stool, drive a audi rather than a kia, use a nice bike instead of a department store bike, use snap-on tools instead of harbor freight junk.

I'd rather use a decent terminal app than DOS command line, use a well thought out OS than windows, use any mac hardware over any PC hardware.
Nice rapping bro.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 09:07 AM   #77
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I'd rather sit on a comfy leather recliner than a bar stool, drive a audi rather than a kia, use a nice bike instead of a department store bike, use snap-on tools instead of harbor freight junk.
If only those were even remotely analogous, then you'd have a point.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 12:54 PM   #78
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But don't really need Foxconn or Pegatron if not chasing volume ( lower price points so can sell more. ). Giving up design control to the manufacturer who makes profit by squeezing quality out of the design is the feedback circle.
These companies will take on smaller orders as well, and can do it efficiently (rapid batch on an existing assembly line), thus giving them a potential competitive edge vs. the smaller PCB/prototyping houses that are available (in fact, most of the ones you might deal with directly actually farm it out to the larger companies and take a cut in the process).

And since most client companies (name on the box) is after low cost, the lowest bidder wins the contract. Why do you think Apple dumped Intel once their contracts were expired on the board manufacturing side for the MP's?

It sure as heck wasn't because Intel was shipping garbage boards. Foxconn simply offered Apple a better deal (lowered the assembly cost, so that final assembly + board production = cheaper than Intel + Foxconn for final assembly).

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if system vendors punt the design to a 3rd party they actually aren't in control. Those folks typically aren't around holding the risk responsibility when their short cuts kick in.
No kidding' they lose control, and the business side is fine with it.

You do realize that the vast majority of systems are produced this way... Next up, is OEM (vendor designs the system, and a contractor manufactures it), and the days of totally in-house design and production are nearly non-existent (Foxconn and Asus do this for example). HP was capable of this at one time, but dumped the factories long ago to reduce overhead and maximize their profits (chasing the lower production costs in Asia).

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There is a catch-22 with outsourcing. If outsource too much then don't experts inside to make the judgment calls to stop too few layers or to gauge the long term quality.
Again, the business side doesn't care. It's all about short-term profits.

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Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
What I really want is something quiet and yet completely open for easy access to everything - I wanna see everything and not even have to remove a side panel in order to gain access. And as much hot-swapping as possible!

...but they usually miss the mark.
This thing reminds me of a clean test rig for validating a board design (prior to stuffing it in a case), instead of having the main board just sitting open on a table.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 06:03 PM   #79
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These companies will take on smaller orders as well, and can do it efficiently ....

And since most client companies (name on the box) is after low cost, the lowest bidder wins the contract.
Yeah but Apple 30+% margin on the product. I can see the vendors scraping by with 3-8% margin play this kind of game but long term Apple isn't going to have 30+% pricing power if move to shlock products.


Quote:
Why do you think Apple dumped Intel once their contracts were expired on the board manufacturing side for the MP's?
It was probably cheaper but there is a significant amount of laziness in Apple's suppler actions too where they just pick one factory/vendor for total worldwide production. In trying to squeeze more out of vendors they combine tasks as leverage to squeeze out more margin.

I think it comes back to bite them in the butt most times on this front also.

Quote:
No kidding' they lose control, and the business side is fine with it.
Business typically isn't fine with it when profits dip in the out years. Right now hypergowth iPhone money is covering up for some pretty sloppy stuff. Apple's has got some Dilbertesque pointy head boss moments going on right now in middle management.



Quote:
You do realize that the vast majority of systems are produced this way... Next up, is OEM (vendor designs the system, and a contractor manufactures it),
I'm aware. But there is a balance that is necessary to be a leader in quality and innovation.


Quote:
HP was capable of this at one time, but dumped the factories long ago to reduce overhead and maximize their profits (chasing the lower production costs in Asia).
And they appear to be loosing share to Lenovo which hasn't followed that path. (Lenovo is sitting on higher growth markets though).

When Carly dropped Hewlett/Packard from the name, I didn't think she was doing them a favor at the time. As proceeded to crush HP at least it was just initials.

Quote:
Again, the business side doesn't care. It's all about short-term profits.
That is what is so lame in Apple's case. They've got money coming out of their eyeballs. More money than they know reasonably know what to do with. So to play the short term gimmick game is ridiculous.

If short term profits were key issue the Mac Pro would be in good shape. Growth is the problem. Nickel and diming on suppliers isn't going to fix that.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 07:33 PM   #80
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Yeah but Apple 30+% margin on the product. I can see the vendors scraping by with 3-8% margin play this kind of game but long term Apple isn't going to have 30+% pricing power if move to shlock products.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case. Cost cutting is running amok even for top tier products these days. Nor is it limited to specific industries.

Anything from premium electronics to hand tools, even where very high standards are required, such as aerospace (hint: Boeing's CEO openly stated he wants to move production to China), to recycled parts being used in implanted medical devices (used, defective leads installed in items such as pace makers and defibrillator's that caused the death of patients).

BTW, Apple's gross margins, even on the base MP's, is in excess of 50%.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
It was probably cheaper but there is a significant amount of laziness in Apple's suppler actions too where they just pick one factory/vendor for total worldwide production. In trying to squeeze more out of vendors they combine tasks as leverage to squeeze out more margin.

I think it comes back to bite them in the butt most times on this front also.
I suspect there isn't an industry left that doesn't cut corners in order to increase their margins anymore.

But bear in mind that Apple's decisions were based on two requirements; one would be the lowest cost, and if the supplier/s (added together if more than one), could meet their quantity requirements. Whichever supplier or group of suppliers can (or Apple believes they can) meet both of these goals, will get the contract.

Why do you think they're still doing business with Samsung, given all of the negative press regarding their feelings towards them?

Money talks, the rest is hot air in business thinking.

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Business typically isn't fine with it when profits dip in the out years. Right now hypergowth iPhone money is covering up for some pretty sloppy stuff. Apple's has got some Dilbertesque pointy head boss moments going on right now in middle management.
From what I've seen, it's the business decisions that are almost always the root cause behind such issues.

One of the major ones, is cutting R&D down to below what's needed to keep existing products competitive and new/replacement products in the pipeline to cover when a segment/product line has run it's course. Nor is this a new issue, even in the realm of computers (Commodore immediately comes to mind).

And as per where it originates, I promise you, it comes from the top. It's their responsibility to know what's going on in the company, and although they play dumb and point the finger when the brown stuff hits the fan, if you actually dig, you'll usually find it originated from the top (i.e. cost cutting email memo sent out to all middle management). Middle management just takes the blame.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
But there is a balance that is necessary to be a leader in quality and innovation.
You and I may understand this, but MBA's do not as a general rule.

Please understand, it originates in how they're taught; which is that all business is the same, regardless of the products/services offered. So they take that as "we don't need to fully understand our products/services because it doesn't matter". What this translates to in the real world, is they don't have a real clue as to what's actually going on in the company they're tasked with running, let alone the real world. The extent of this disconnect is absolutely amazing, but it's real (every watched any episodes of "Undercover Boss"?).

And not knowing/fully understanding your product line and the market it's sold in = deadly for the company. It would be like putting a blindfold on a captain while sailing through mine field and expecting everything to go perfectly. They truly do not understand this, which is why so many great companies have vanished in the last three decades or so in particular.

This is made even more difficult when these companies have so many different products and services due to mergers/buyouts/acquisitions, that they can't master any of them if they try.

Yet smaller/mid-sized companies that have remained as specialists are doing fine comparatively speaking.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
And they appear to be loosing share to Lenovo which hasn't followed that path. (Lenovo is sitting on higher growth markets though).

When Carly dropped Hewlett/Packard from the name, I didn't think she was doing them a favor at the time. As proceeded to crush HP at least it was just initials.
What's happened at HP is just sad and disgusting IMHO. They keep shifting from one idiot to another, each one making things worst off than the last.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
That is what is so lame in Apple's case. They've got money coming out of their eyeballs. More money than they know reasonably know what to do with. So to play the short term gimmick game is ridiculous.
Their bonuses are based on the short term earnings, so that's why they're fine with it. Simply put, personal greed.

It's even gotten to the point where CEO's and the rest of the BoD have run the companies they were tasked with running into the ground, yet walked away with fortunes while everyone else (investors + customers) were completely screwed.

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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
If short term profits were key issue the Mac Pro would be in good shape. Growth is the problem. Nickel and diming on suppliers isn't going to fix that.
See above.

What we're seeing is the aftermath of Supply Side Economics (Keynesian, neo-Keynesian, and more recently, Milton Friedman <from the Chicago School of Economics>). And the reason there's no growth?

As per a lack of growth, it really comes down to the fact they didn't keep up with R&D, and the reduction in real employee wages (less disposable income than in past decades) have damaged the domestic market. Put the two together, there's not enough improvement to entice buyers to purchase newer goods, and in the rare instance they are interested, they may not have the funds to buy it anyway.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 07:39 PM   #81
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Iam fed up of waiting for the new mac pro so ive switched to a PC based system with win7 pro and ivybridge i7 3770k clocked to 4.5g 32g DDR3 2100mhz with an Asus Xonar Essence ST Sound Card with raid sata6 with OCZ vertex 3 drives, its fast and my music has never sounded so good.


I know some will say windows is inferior ect ect but so far iam finding it very good indeed and CS6 flys along very nicely.


I hope you guys waiting it out for a mac wont have to wait to long, but so far iam very pleased with my purchase.
I understand your frustration. I ended up going with an iMac instead of buying a WinPC. But I can't blame you honestly. I'm thinking about buying a custom PC gaming rig when I graduate college... as a graduation present to myself.

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good for you, i'll be chillin with my new mac pro while you dingle with some ugly plastic stupid os machine.
this is the kind of attitude that makes the rest of the world hate mac users.
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 11:24 PM   #82
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I was thinking of waiting till PT 11 actually because I haven't got a hope of affording to upgrade till at least August this year anyway so waiting longer wouldn't be an issue either.

I'm always using layed Alesis HR-16 and Roland TR-808/TR-909 multisamples for beats and Novation Drumstations and circuit-bent HR-16s show up on eBay quite often. It's a shame how many of these companies are reduced to making USB keyboards and interfaces for software synth use when they made so much analogue based stuff in the 80s and 90s.
Since the OP has already switched to PC then no big deal on PT talk
1. If you have loads of 32bit plugins PT10 may actually be great if the price is lowered when PT11 arrives. I use PT8 (32bit) for mixing and DP7 (32bit) as a sequencer. DP8 is 64bit but 32bit plugs don't work. But it does allow you to open in 32bit mode (YouTube). My UAD's (6.5) are 64bit (a free update) and others I have are 32bit. So I passed on DP8 for now in order not to update all my 32bit plugs.
2. If you look into UA plugs make sure you read how many plugs you can have going at one time based on the "DSP" unit you get. I have the UAD2 solo laptop that I use on my MBP 1.83 and MP 3.1 via a pcie 34expresscard adapter.
3. If you are not familiar with this site http://tweakheadz.com/ take a look
4. Seems as if you are into loads of vintage gear. Years ago when I used the ASR-10 I think there were vintage drum machines on disks. HR-16, HR-16B,
R-8, TR-808, TR-909 etc. To find them my take some doing. I use Kontakt as the software sampler. An older app http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FeyPPAodDiAAXA was great to translate sample libraries. If you locate those drum machines or other sounds, the app from sweetwater my send it to a format you can read.

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Old Mar 19, 2013, 11:27 PM   #83
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If only those were even remotely analogous, then you'd have a point.
You commented, point made

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Nice rapping bro.
thanks bro
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 12:14 AM   #84
handsome pete
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You commented, point made
Oh, so you just made inane comparisons to illicit any sort of response. Bravo.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 01:39 AM   #85
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Oh, so you just made inane comparisons to illicit any sort of response. Bravo.
No, specifically your response.

The whole premise of this thing is tired and worn out, why not see what comes of a few stupid analogies that some will take WAY too seriously?

BTW comparing a PC to a Mac is just as "inane"
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 10:31 AM   #86
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No, specifically your response.

The whole premise of this thing is tired and worn out, why not see what comes of a few stupid analogies that some will take WAY too seriously?
I agree that this topic is pretty played out by now, but then again we're in a Mac Pro forum so I think it's expected. Soliciting responses to silly comparisons really doesn't move the conversation forward.

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BTW comparing a PC to a Mac is just as "inane"
How so? For anyone actually needing the power of a Mac Pro, a PC workstation is certainly a worthy competitor.
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 10:54 AM   #87
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Ok guys so I am going to Apple headquarters this weekend with a sunglasses camera just to pop in the Apple gift shop and maybe see if I can pretend to be an intern and do a little investigation of my own on the new mac pro
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 11:04 AM   #88
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I also couldn't wait any longer so I ordered a maxed-out iMac 27".
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 09:34 PM   #89
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PCI v 2.0 came out in 1993 more than a decade before any model with the label 'Mac Pro' ever appeared, so I'm going to assume you are trying to talk about PCI-e v2.0 ( circa 2008 models). All system vendors who built PCI-e 1.0-1.1 workstation have limited long term upgrade-ability. Frankly, most Windows PCs from that era have BIOS which means they can't even deal with 3TB hard drives. So narrowing this down to Apple is suspect.




The current MP (since 2009 ) doesn't have buffered RAM. Again perhaps talking about ECC but ...




Not really. The more RAM you have the more likely there will be an error. If you have 4 HDDs and go to 8 HDDs the likelihood that one of those will fail goes up. Same is true with RAM locations. Go from single digits to mid-high double digit or low triple digit GB RAM sizes and the probability of an error is going up.

It also depends on how valuable the data is. If individual bits of data are practically worthless then it probably doesn't pay to protect them if it doesn't make a difference to anyone.




It isn't really a counterpart if significantly changing the "horsepower". Part of the size difference is from the power dissipation needs that are higher.




Perhaps mean decades older or more accurately over a decade older? At this point, Windows is decades old. (the kernels and libraries for all of these have significantly changed over the years which is what really matters. )



Yes, as the competitive pressures Microsoft feels from Android and iOS attest.




The next MP probably has core chipset Intel audio; just like other Macs have transitioned to. There are PCI-e card, USB , and FW options for those who are highly selective about their audio processing.




The "best" is typically not the same criteria as to what Apple bounds the Mac Pro. Typically this is an "Apples versus Oranges" comparision where the home built crowd claim have an equivalent when it is not . The other subset is those who are making the case for a product that Apple doesn't sell. (xMac , gamer niche box , etc. )




There is no way the iPad is in a similar class as an iMac. Battery powered vs. not. Size not even close. Touch screen vs. not (if get a bundled trackpad can touch but it is not the screen ). single I/O port versus several. RAM soldered to motherboard vs. not. limited to relatively smaller flash smaller sizes vs. high end HDD class storage size.

The "form over function" arguments are weak when used in same context as "best performance".
yes, you are correct that I was referencing PCI-e thus 1.2 vs 2.x etc.
other points and btw, I appreciate your response to that post.

1) early MP (2008 model often sold into 2009) was ECC - FB.
2) obvious the more hard drive the greater the error too etc., more RAM has its place and the logic is specious about error unless you are using non-ECC.
3) both Linux and Windows went through various incarnations with Linux requiring less ground up rewrites unlike Windows. Then again, the philosophy of the kernel build is different. OSX is built on an old OS that still holds water but then again, this certainly doesn't make OSX cutting edge at any level. I like OSX and prefer it over Windows and the GUI makes it a pleasure. KDE and GNOME are okay and I admit my fav GUI and OS remains with OS/2 (we all have our biases).
4) Perhaps using a superlative on my part was a bad choice - home built systems allow one to select ideal parts and more specifically, parts that make sense for the usage of the computer. Whether it is a specific card for audio, video or even just the choice of type and size of drives. The bto for Mac is rather minimal and often not overly flexible.
5) The iPad on steroids comment with respect to the iMac is about slimming down the iMac and making it rather self contained (not easily upgradable and in the 21" model - not meant to be upgraded by a typical end user). The analogy was yes, about form over function with respect to upgrade-ability.
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Old Mar 23, 2013, 08:02 AM   #90
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But in good justice, current Mac Pro users dont have:

-Good support or variety of graphic cards
To me this does not hold much water anymore. A dozen or more models of graphic cards are natively supported, besides the ones offered in the Apple store. Sure some of the AMD card drivers can be written out of Mac OSX, but Nvidia writes drivers for its cards for Mac along with the recent Saphire 7950 Mac edition card recently being released.
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Old Mar 23, 2013, 10:13 AM   #91
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WOW

Well what can I say, so many comments, some good some bad some just plain rude. I had no idea that some people can be so controlled by a brand. I still have my mac pro, so I can still post in here. infact I found a sata 3 card that I posted in here to help others get SATA 3 SSD drives in the mac pro. link here

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...ghlight=sata+3

so I did contribute to the forum and pass on what I had found. such a bad man I am for building a windows based machine. (GROW UP)

I changed to a PC as my main machine for my own reasons! and one of them is iam fed up of waiting for a new mac pro simple as that. I need to get work done and the PC build was the answer.

did I read is the sound any better? anyone ever used a top line asus sound card, sounds much better than my mac pro does.

As for build quality, the Silverstone case costing over 200 $300 I used is top quality, and very well thought out, superior cooling, 8 hard drives 6 fitted in mine. 2 X 250g SSD
4 X 2tb drives 2 optical drives including blueray RW, multicard reader 12 usb ports, firewire and external SATA ports. GTX680 and yes tomb raider looks great!

Iam not dissing my mac pro as its been a fine machine, but iam not blinded by brand, apple missed the boat with the mac pro update, and some will move over to windows based machines and like myself find windows 7 very stable in what it does and what I use it for which is work and earning a living!

Just because I built a windows based machine dosnt mean I now hate mac! infact if you want to know this machine will also run ML as a hackintosh. but iam happy with win 7 pro for now.

If apple ever do bring out a new mac pro I might well consider it. but only if its superior to what iam using now hardware wise.

anyway enough said, my purchase suits my needs and if mac had updated they might well have my money instead.







USB3, on board SATA PCIE 3 DDR3 2000mhz ivybridge cpu
Who asked you!

Your comments are irrelevant to this thread.
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Old Mar 23, 2013, 03:05 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by phrehdd View Post
yes, you are correct that I was referencing PCI-e thus 1.2 vs 2.x etc.
other points and btw, I appreciate your response to that post.

1) early MP (2008 model often sold into 2009) was ECC - FB.
Buffered RAM is primarily needed for multiple ranks of DIMMs. Apple got off that path more than several years ago. There are 4 and 8 depending upon the number of CPU packages. DDR4 is only going to solidify that trend toward point-to-point connections between the RAM and the CPU package.


Quote:
2) obvious the more hard drive the greater the error too etc., more RAM has its place and the logic is specious about error unless you are using non-ECC.
There are errors whether you have RAM with ECC or not. The primary issue is with ECC at least you know you had an error. With non-ECC you don't.

This author is pushing the envelope of the gravity of the situation (not a "nightmare") on the Google study done several years ago but

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/dr...imm-street/638

issues do show up. The folks who claim that RAM is solid state so in the "rare metorite strike rate of occurrence" for problems don't have any substantive experimental data to back that up.



Quote:
5) The iPad on steroids comment with respect to the iMac is about slimming down the iMac and making it rather self contained (not easily upgradable and in the 21" model - not meant to be upgraded by a typical end user). The analogy was yes, about form over function with respect to upgrade-ability.
Over the 70 year history of digital computers they have been getting smaller. The iMac dumped the ODD and could trim the edges so they did.

The lack of access to RAM doesn't have so much to with the thinness of the 21.5" iMac as much as Apple's vanity with providing a door to get to the DIMM slots. The 27" model manages to hide that behind the pedestal arm.
Whether Apple later rejuggles the 21.5" internals so that a door fits up the arm without getting in the way of the cooling system up in the air. It may have been just convenient to do the layout this way for now. It is upgradable, just not by casual users.

The MBA appeared before they iPad did and has the same characteristics you are arm flapping on. That also bring the iMac and Mac Pro into the equivalence class but shows that Apple's iOS devices aren't driving
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Old Mar 23, 2013, 06:31 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by deconstruct60 View Post
Buffered RAM is primarily needed for multiple ranks of DIMMs. Apple got off that path more than several years ago. There are 4 and 8 depending upon the number of CPU packages. DDR4 is only going to solidify that trend toward point-to-point connections between the RAM and the CPU package.




There are errors whether you have RAM with ECC or not. The primary issue is with ECC at least you know you had an error. With non-ECC you don't.

This author is pushing the envelope of the gravity of the situation (not a "nightmare") on the Google study done several years ago but

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/dr...imm-street/638

issues do show up. The folks who claim that RAM is solid state so in the "rare metorite strike rate of occurrence" for problems don't have any substantive experimental data to back that up.





Over the 70 year history of digital computers they have been getting smaller. The iMac dumped the ODD and could trim the edges so they did.

The lack of access to RAM doesn't have so much to with the thinness of the 21.5" iMac as much as Apple's vanity with providing a door to get to the DIMM slots. The 27" model manages to hide that behind the pedestal arm.
Whether Apple later rejuggles the 21.5" internals so that a door fits up the arm without getting in the way of the cooling system up in the air. It may have been just convenient to do the layout this way for now. It is upgradable, just not by casual users.

The MBA appeared before they iPad did and has the same characteristics you are arm flapping on. That also bring the iMac and Mac Pro into the equivalence class but shows that Apple's iOS devices aren't driving
I guess this 'discussion' on both parts is not only subjective but speculation. To me, it seems rather clear that the iphone/ipad/ipod are the design attributes slowly creeping into the iMac line - sleek, thin, self contained (not so upgradable by end users) and one might guess soon to have touch screen ability added to the mix (again speculation on my part). The laptop line also takes on more form over function which many in the forums complain about with respect to inability to add drives easily and limited memory slots etc. etc. I do enjoy the notion of some form similarities but not at the cost of function. Given that the iMac is not designed as a mobile system, the desire to make slim has no value. The foot print is pretty much the same as its predecessors.

I suppose my take would be, given that the base for the iMac just has one way pivot, to put some "guts" into the base and thus let people be able to do expansion there if they continue with their slimming of the iMacs. The new iMac (to me) has no more appeal than the previous models that were not as iPad on steroids in looks. To each his/her own.
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