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Old Jun 9, 2013, 04:45 PM   #151
subsonix
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
Much more logical reason for TB to exist in even the cheapest macs is just for PR value. You can say that it has something better than the rest, even if it's probably not even used. Also there's lots of people who like to buy new tech they don't ever need.
It's not more logical. IMO they see where the market of full blown workstations with PCIe slots is heading, more people can do with a laptop or smaller computer, what TB does is give an interface that enables the expansion on smaller computers, and now it's included in all Apple's computers.

An interesting side note, I have noticed that it's usually the same group of people who resisted flat screens in favor of CRTs the longest that also complain about non-matte screen options, that is despite the fact that CRTs had glossy screens. There are no-gloss options however, although not matte afaik.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 05:58 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
Hmm, looks like I chose very bad comparison to get a glance of real world difference of TB and usb3. 4big and 5 big are so different products.

I do know that there is use of TB among some video professionals. The thing I've used to criticize is that there is only 0.1% of users who benefit from TB and usually Apple doesn't cater such niche.

If you use software raid, I'd guess that limiting factor is how much you have cpu power for software. If you have hardware raid-5, once again the limiting factor is hardware's processing power.

If you need only 5 or less hdd's in raid-0 you can just use internal hdd's of MP in desktop enviroment. In the field with laptop usb3 is fast enough for 3-disk raid0.

So what's left is need for over 5-disk raid-0 in desktop enviroment or over 4-disk raid-0 with macbook on the field. These are pretty über-niche things.
Eg. if you are a DIT in big productions, you'll use much more expensive equipnment and if you are indie-DIT with no budget, you're better off with cheaper storage than TB-connected raids.

If we really think that Apple wants to offer support for this kind of niche use, then why not anything else? Why not 17" retina? Why not matte retina? Why not to offer wider expandability like modular bays which could be used as ec-slot, cf-reader, secondary or tertiary storage or just for extra battery? Why not giving decent GPU options for hard work? Why they had to get rid of video professionals with shake & fcp?

Much more logical reason for TB to exist in even the cheapest macs is just for PR value. You can say that it has something better than the rest, even if it's probably not even used. Also there's lots of people who like to buy new tech they don't ever need.
You should look at it from another angle. TB allows them to move more out of the desktop / laptop and into external devices (via Thunderbolt displays, third party hubs, etc.) It allows for thinner devices. If they dropped everything but power, audio and Thunderbolt, they'd still have plenty of connectivity options.

I don't see them doing that at this time, as USB 3.0 is supported directly by Ivy Bridge / Haswell, thickness of the connector isn't much more than display port, etc. I could see them going to a mini USB 3.0 connector, but that's neither here nor there.

The LaCie product in comparison doesn't have anything to do with Apple, per se.

Apple has Thunderbolt support, which is pushed by Apple, but it's Intel tech. What is your point?

Do you really think Apple would dump Firewire and marginalize the product by outfitting their laptops with the same connectivity options that all PC brands offer? They added Thunderbolt before USB 3.0, but that was strictly due to the previous generation Intel support for USB 3.0. Apple wasn't going to put a third party chip in there just for USB 3.0.

As far as outfitting their laptops the same as the PC industry as a whole, that's not in their vision, it's not what a vast number of their customers want to see, and it's a strawman that I'm tired of talking about. So I'm done.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 07:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by cmanderson View Post
You should look at it from another angle. TB allows them to move more out of the desktop / laptop and into external devices (via Thunderbolt displays, third party hubs, etc.) It allows for thinner devices. If they dropped everything but power, audio and Thunderbolt, they'd still have plenty of connectivity options.
I do understand that TB is nice tech for laptops to get powerful peripherals which are overpriced for most of users, but what I don't get is why Apple couldn't still have a real desktop workstation that would do more than TB can deliver.

I'd say this is the whole point of these topics about new MP. Does it have suffer from TB being in existence. Right solution would be keep everything there was and add TB to the mix. Not replace something that already works better.
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Old Jun 9, 2013, 09:21 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
I do understand that TB is nice tech for laptops to get powerful peripherals which are overpriced for most of users, but what I don't get is why Apple couldn't still have a real desktop workstation that would do more than TB can deliver.

I'd say this is the whole point of these topics about new MP. Does it have suffer from TB being in existence. Right solution would be keep everything there was and add TB to the mix. Not replace something that already works better.
I can't think of a thing they replaced that worked better than what I have now. I've lost nothing and gained a lot. Good day.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 03:27 AM   #155
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I can't think of a thing they replaced that worked better than what I have now. I've lost nothing and gained a lot. Good day.
40 lanes of PCIe4.0 equal 31 TB sockets.
But I'll continue in "Something different for MP"-thread.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 01:25 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by cmanderson View Post
I can't think of a thing they replaced that worked better than what I have now. I've lost nothing and gained a lot. Good day.
Well, now you've got internal (non-replaceable?) GPU and lost PCIe slots and swappable internal storage.
Welcome lots of boxes and cables with incredible high prices!
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 01:38 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
Well, now you've got internal (non-replaceable?) GPU and lost PCIe slots and swappable internal storage.
Welcome lots of boxes and cables with incredible high prices!
If I wanted a PC I'd have bought a PC.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 04:23 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by cmanderson View Post
If I wanted a PC I'd have bought a PC.
I want a pc with osX, so I guess I'm going to build one...
Price gap is undoubtedly getting so much wider, when with MP you need a box and cables for every component.
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 05:17 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by toke lahti View Post
I want a pc with osX, so I guess I'm going to build one...
Price gap is undoubtedly getting so much wider, when with MP you need a box and cables for every component.
Those are choices you get to make. I don't look down on anyone who wants to run a Hackintosh, it's just a concern whether or not it's appropriate to do so in a business setting (it is not) or at home (it's still not, but Apple seems to be looking the other way so far...at least when it comes to enthusiasts.)
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Old Jun 10, 2013, 10:10 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by bedifferent View Post
God I hope you're right. Sadly, many of us have been discussing the lack of a Xeon based Thunderbolt processor(s). We don't know when or if Intel will release them. If they do, it won't be until next year. Since the Mac Pro uses server grade Xeon processors, only Ivy Bridge-E would be possible at the moment and that lacks Thunderbolt.
In spades.
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Old Jun 12, 2013, 04:04 AM   #161
toke lahti
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cmanderson,
why your raid has so much lower reading speeds than writing?
Isn't it usually other way around?
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 07:24 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by guzhogi View Post
While you can daisy chain 2 of Apple's TB Displays together, I know what you're saying & some people don't want to use Apple's displays.

Can someone clarify something for me? I think I read on AppleInsider or someplace that TB 1 has two channels, each 10 GBps while TB 2 has only one 20 Gbps channel so they basically just combined the 2 channels. Did I read/understand that correctly? Just wondering.
Yeah I know you can daisy chain the Apple displays, but mine aren't Apple. Sure wish I had the cash for those babies though, they are pretty nice looking.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:04 AM   #163
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Hopefully, work on the new Mac Pro will bring 4K...

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Originally Posted by Moonjumper View Post
A sign of 4K support on Macs?

EDIT: no, apparently
I can only hope that since they need plush 4K support on the new Mac Pro and upcoming FCP X, that this will be (finally) rolled into the general Mac OS, and so any Mac that could physically drive a 4K monitor would finally be able to.

As an example, many other forums have noted that the current MacOS can only drive HDMI at half speed (1.1 rates) even when the hardware supports HDMI 1.2, so it seems like all around, the OS is the bottleneck. It's sad how often I see "it works when I use Windows in boot camp".
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:15 AM   #164
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Two ways new things enter computers...

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Originally Posted by subsonix View Post
An interesting side note, I have noticed that it's usually the same group of people who resisted flat screens in favor of CRTs the longest that also complain about non-matte screen options, that is despite the fact that CRTs had glossy screens. There are no-gloss options however, although not matte afaik.
CRTs all had anti-glare coatings, and I can't remember any with a truly flat front, which is the true reason glare becomes an issue - because your glass becomes a mirror.

Early flat screens (LCDs) had horrible resolution (and color gamut) - that's why people who cared about monitors waited for them to catch up to CRTs before adopting them. The first flat screen monitor I owned was the 17" SGI 1600SW in 1998 - until then I'd've been a total idiot to inflict a flat screen upon myself. New doesn't mean better.

There's an easy way to tell whether something is an actual improvement or not: If it starts on the lowest end models and slowly rises up to the high end models as it improves, then it's something that helps save the company money (like removing anti-glare coatings), but doesn't improve the experience. If it's something that starts at the high end models and slowly works its way down as the price gets better, then it's an end user feature - something that makes the experience better.

If you see high end users hesitate to adopt something, it's probably not a feature for the end user, but a way the company is being cheap.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 08:58 AM   #165
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hopefully the iMac with get this in it's update this year
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 10:13 AM   #166
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CRTs all had anti-glare coatings, and I can't remember any with a truly flat front, which is the true reason glare becomes an issue - because your glass becomes a mirror.
Some of the MacBooks also have anti-glare options, and Sony Trinitron CRTs had a truly flat surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdiamond View Post
Early flat screens (LCDs) had horrible resolution (and color gamut) - that's why people who cared about monitors waited for them to catch up to CRTs before adopting them. The first flat screen monitor I owned was the 17" SGI 1600SW in 1998 - until then I'd've been a total idiot to inflict a flat screen upon myself. New doesn't mean better.
Yeah, I know, I'm just saying that no CRT was matte in the way some flat screen monitors are.
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 04:29 PM   #167
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Thanks for the cool history point...

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Originally Posted by subsonix View Post
... Sony Trinitron CRTs had a truly flat surface.
Ah, cool info! The "FD Trinitrons" actually were flat, but they came out right after I stopped using CRTs, so I hadn't heard of them. Surprisingly, according to their wiki page, they were of much lower resolution and had to use vertical interlacing just to break 1000 lines. I guess Sony was mainly aiming them at television usage.

OK, that was an aside to this forum discussion, but it was interesting to see...
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Old Jun 22, 2013, 05:32 PM   #168
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Ah, cool info! The "FD Trinitrons" actually were flat, but they came out right after I stopped using CRTs, so I hadn't heard of them. Surprisingly, according to their wiki page, they were of much lower resolution and had to use vertical interlacing just to break 1000 lines. I guess Sony was mainly aiming them at television usage.

OK, that was an aside to this forum discussion, but it was interesting to see...
Many of the previous Trinitron monitors also had a flat surface (mid to late 90s), it looked as though a flat glass screen was fitted ontop of the actual display surface (seen below). The effect on reflections would still be the same however, which was what we were discussing.

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Old Jun 23, 2013, 03:12 PM   #169
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really awesome advancement, i hope it comes out soon.
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