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Old Jun 17, 2013, 12:03 AM   #126
citizenzen
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Originally Posted by jsolares View Post
So you're basing it entirely on belief? just because you don't believe they are recording the calls?
Yes. Entirely on belief. I base all my socio-political knowledge in faith alone.



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... a lot of people are freaking out because of the worst case scenario, yours seems to be best case, what do you think is more likely?
Best case scenario is that the program wouldn't exist and/or they'd strictly obtain warrants, which we know they don't always do.

I think I occupy a rational middle ground.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 12:41 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
Best case scenario is that the program wouldn't exist and/or they'd strictly obtain warrants, which we know they don't always do.

I think I occupy a rational middle ground.
No, that's no longer best case scenario, you already know they collect all call records, you also now know they gather data at the router level.

Your middle ground is now best case scenario, that that's as far as they go.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 12:47 AM   #128
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Next republican president should have a field day with these powers. I can't wait. That might wake up half the population and get them engaged.

...then again, the currently pissed off side will probably fall asleep when their party is in power...

And so the cycle continues.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 08:37 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Technarchy View Post
Next republican president should have a field day with these powers. I can't wait. That might wake up half the population and get them engaged.

...then again, the currently pissed off side will probably fall asleep when their party is in power...

And so the cycle continues.
Neither side cares because they are either to chicken **** to change anything or they think this is working and don't know how the internet works.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 09:55 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
I'm surprised again at how difficult it is to discuss an issue around here.

I have stated my opposition to the NSA program and my disappointment in Obama.

And I promise make a sincere effort to polarize my thoughts and remove any nuance in my argument to better align with the other members of this forum.

Of the good and bad things the president has done, some of those things stick:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...controversies/

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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post

Best case scenario is that the program wouldn't exist and/or they'd strictly obtain warrants, which we know they don't always do.

I think I occupy a rational middle ground.
Yes, maybe so but that middle ground isn't held by many. Even the thought of our government spying on us should not even come up. The facts will come out in the wash and it won't be as bad as Rand Paul is saying. Yes, I know Bush put in that stupid program but why Obama didn't do more to stop it will hurt the current president however unfair that seems.

I see the middle ground. The wars overseas reached their peak in unpopularity and Obama took a lot of the blame. Part of all this blame comes with the job.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 10:07 AM   #131
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Yes, I know Bush put in that stupid program but why Obama didn't do more to stop it will hurt the current president however unfair that seems.
And this is my biggest gripe with Obama. He had the opportunity to effect real change in Washington and instead revealed himself to be far more conservative than promised in his first campaign.

It's possible that no one person could change the system, that it's so entrenched that it's beyond the power of the president to stop. If that's the case, then we may be heading to 1984 ... if a little behind schedule.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 10:19 AM   #132
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And this is my biggest gripe with Obama. He had the opportunity to effect real change in Washington and instead revealed himself to be far more conservative than promised in his first campaign.

It's possible that no one person could change the system, that it's so entrenched that it's beyond the power of the president to stop. If that's the case, then we may be heading to 1984 ... if a little behind schedule.
We probably know in this forum, on both sides, that any president is at most a figurehead and the ones who have the real power (other than lobbyists on the left and right) are the members of Congress. If I were a PR person working for the president, fully knowing the position's inability to affect too much change, I would push for him to have a more forceful demeanor. In both the constitution and documents that helped forge it (federalist and anti-federalist papers), it was the aim of the founding fathers to avoid a powerful King George III character so our system was built to spread out the power and not have any one person do too much.

Bush was terribly ineffective and was probably not all that smart but knew how to drive home a point (like the "need" to invade Iraq). The only times I saw when Obama seemed to believe in something in the way he spoke was during the campaigns. I think Obama's true personality is one of a very quiet person who does not overreact. That may work well for Bill (Belichick) or Bruce (Bochy), but not for Barack. Unfortunately, the job of POTUS requires some degree of being a cheerleader. The president is the type of person who even if he did make substantial changes would simply not talk to the press about it. I don't think he cares what the press or what historians think of him and is happy in getting things done quietly behind closed doors.

Even more outspoken politicians like Bob Dole and Ronald Reagan ended up doing so much more in quiet for their causes but never talked about it outside of said meetings. Reagan, beyond his awful right wing rhetoric, was a master at working out compromises with the democratic Speaker of the House Tip O'Neil in private meetings. Reagan could have helped his image with liberals and moderates with this information of his generous compromises with democrats, but ultimately it wasn't his style. A hundred years from now those quiet meetings and progress with Tip O'Neil may be seen as the best things he has ever done as president.

For all we know Obama and Boehner have made a lot of compromises which has bettered the country but the details and scope of them are too complicated and boring to put to press. Certain issues like home loans, interest rates, taxation on small business, etc which are truly the most important issues just don't get much love on CNN. We want to hear about unemployment and "who" to blame, war, and the latest details of Kim Kardashian.

I know I have wandered in above rantings but I am trying to make some point and I wish Lee Kohler was here!

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Old Jun 17, 2013, 11:37 AM   #133
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If I were a PR person working for the president, fully knowing the position's inability to affect too much change, I would push for him to have a more forceful demeanor.
Totally agree.

Too conservative.

Too passive.
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Old Jun 17, 2013, 11:54 AM   #134
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Totally agree.

Too conservative.

Too passive.
I think what happened when he got into office was trying too hard to please the republicans in the House. It was a deck of cards stacked against him much in the way that Clinton had a lot to deal with in the Gingrich era House. How Clinton dealt with it, at least publicly, was much more honorable looking than how Obama deals with Boehner. What I would really like to be is a fly on the wall watching what really happens in a private meeting between the two. There have probably been a lot more of those than the press reports on. You have two parties running our system of government and these are the main spokesepeople for each. We should just call them the yes men for the lobbyists on both sides. I can't wait until we get a Speaker or a president who one day decides to speak up for the people knowing that it will spell the end of their term. I can see someone like Rand Paul, or liberal counterpart, doing this and getting into White House on what will be a one term presidency.

If you go against the lobby then you don't get money and without that, you will likely lose. I don't know if there is a legal way to limit the influence of groups like the NRA. Though I agree with the concepts of liberal lobby groups like teacher's unions and pro union lobbies, they still employ the same aggressive tactics like the much maligned NRA. You don't get to be a powerful lobby in DC by playing nice or playing fair. If our system stays in a frame of democracy better with lobbyists with too much power as a way to stop mob rule, then it's probably the lesser of two evils. But to me a lobby is just a covert and organized form of mob rule. As long as people run any system, this type of financial bullying will always be the end result. There's a chance that there is no such thing as democracy in action.
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Old Jun 18, 2013, 08:04 PM   #135
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Neither side cares because they are either to chicken **** to change anything or they think this is working and don't know how the internet works.
I agree.

Far too many people on this forum would have an aneurism if this NSA deal happened under Bush.

Sadly, their conviction and principles seem to be on sabbatical now that Obama is in the White House.

This is how this NSA nonsense gets to happen. You must have a real value system that is unwavering, irrespective of who is in the White House. If you don't oppose the erosion of civil rights under a Democrat, you simply empower the next Republican president...and vice versa.
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Old Jun 18, 2013, 09:00 PM   #136
citizenzen
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Far too many people on this forum would have an aneurism if this NSA deal happened under Bush.
Ummm ... it did happen under Bush.

In post #61 of this thread I quoted a Fox News (sorry I didn't find a more reputable source) story from 2006 that reported about "... a colossal NSA database of Americans' phone records, ... collected call logs from the three largest U.S. phone companies, BellSouth Corp. (BLS), AT&T Inc. (T) and Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ)."
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Old Jun 19, 2013, 12:49 AM   #137
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Timeline of NSA Domestic Spying

The Electronic Frontier Foundation's timeline of NSA domestic spying provides a rather interesting look at the record of the government's domestic spying. The timeline consists of credible accounts and information found in the media, congressional testimony, books, and court actions.

Here's (below) is one of the early warning signs about domestic spying running amuck, from 'way back in 1975:

Quote:
Senate "Church Committee" Investigation Uncovers Illegal Domestic Spying by NSA, Recommends Reforms
1975
(Church Committee Findings)
A bipartisan Senate investigation stemming from Watergate, led by Sen. Frank Church, finds the NSA and other intelligence agencies engaged in a massive domestic spying program, targeting anti-war protesters, civil rights activists, and political opponents. Sen. Church remarked: "That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide."

(emphasis added)
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