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Old Dec 2, 2012, 10:05 PM   #51
jmgregory1
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You keep missing the point. Right now you have to choose between your laptop and your tablet, with windows tablets that does not exist anymore. If there is a legacy program I need to run I can run it on the desktop, I can add a keyboard and mouse and run it, I can run it in tablet mode, these are CHOICES I don't have with the ipad. You keep going back to the same thing which boils down to if you need a laptop go buy a laptop, but that's because you are stuck in iOS land where you truly do have to buy a laptop to go with your ipad. I'm very confused, if you have your tablet set up as a laptop why would you touch the screen? You are trying to mix functionality that not even microsoft is trying to make you mix.

I'm also not giving MS a pass until the next chip comes out. That chip is here TODAY, it's called the cloverfield cpu. Certainly we are talking specifically about the surface pro with ivy bridge and I have never denied that it will not sell well and be relegated to an enthusiast purchase. But for MS to strategize to sell a lot of hardware they would have to totally alienate the OEMs, this is a risk I'll bet they are just not willing to make yet. The surface tablets are there way of testing the market, will it be viable for them to ostracize their oems and be the only hardware market similar to Apple? If not they are also hedging their bets by giving the OEMs the middle market and keeping their core business of selling licenses alive. It's very risky either way and maybe straddling the line is a big mistake for MS, only the future will tell.

You are right though that the OEMs suck badly and to rely on them is very risky, MS was already let down in a big way when no OEMs had a single tablet available at windows launch.

As for "a company that has cut corners just to make said tool cheap" I don't see this in Microsoft in the least. I'm actually quite impressed that they are releasing the surface pro at the same price point as a comparable ultrabook. If you look at the keynotes you would see the incredible quality in the surface tablets, the incredible technology, etc that went into them, I don't see a hint of cheapness there at all, in the sense of hardware Microsoft has out-ipadded the ipad. But once again it's a niche device, possibly meant as a tech demo, possibly meant as a way to set the bar for OEMs, possibly meant as a way to test the market of being an Apple like hardware vendor, or some combination of the above.

edit: a bit off topic, but since you mentioned it not everyone thinks touchscreens on laptops are bad including myself. I don't think it's the next big thing though, but once again it is another CHOICE you have. I'm not sure why you want to limit yourself so much, why not have the choice to detach and use as a tablet? Why not have the choice to touch the screen while in laptop mode? Why not have the choice to use the desktop and legacy programs? There are all choices you don't have to take, I don't understand why someone would want to paint themselves in a corner so much. Anyhow one reviewers take on laptop touchscreens: http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/30/3...indows-8-apple
Question for you. Do you use a scalpel cut through bone? Do you use a compact car to haul a half ton of dirt? Or a dump truck to carry you and your family to the store?

Instead of an OS and tablet pretending to be a laptop, why not just make the screen 13" or 15" and offer a real laptop experience? I'm not limiting myself. I'm using the right tool for the job. MS wants you to think the laptop and tablet os is like a spork, but there is a reason sporks did not replace forks and spoons.
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Old Dec 2, 2012, 11:53 PM   #52
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Question for you. Do you use a scalpel cut through bone? Do you use a compact car to haul a half ton of dirt? Or a dump truck to carry you and your family to the store?

Instead of an OS and tablet pretending to be a laptop, why not just make the screen 13" or 15" and offer a real laptop experience? I'm not limiting myself. I'm using the right tool for the job. MS wants you to think the laptop and tablet os is like a spork, but there is a reason sporks did not replace forks and spoons.
While I get your analogies, there are people out there that don't spend the money for using the best tool for the job every time. They will drive their family around in their work f-250 quad cab. They might use their fiat to haul lumber from the store. And they might use a laptop as a tablet as a pc, because that is what they can justify spending their money on.

I am not saying you are wrong, but perhaps this product was not tailored towards the person who has the disposable income for a laptop, a computer, and a desktop, so no matter what he is doing, he gets the best user experience possible. At $900, the specs on this thing are pretty incredible. When you consider that it can, in theory, replace at LEAST the laptop and the tablet, it is a great value. Will people think like this? Who knows.

There is also the argument that this will be a powerful device for business. You essentially have an ultralight laptop, that can work on the go, like a tablet can. Try navigating the UI on a laptop whilst walking through a plant or some such situation. Will industry pick this device up in this way? Again, I don't know. The local MS store claims they have been selling a lot of Surface RT's to businesses. Anecdotal, yes, which is why I can;t say for sure.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 03:18 AM   #53
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Question for you. Do you use a scalpel cut through bone? Do you use a compact car to haul a half ton of dirt? Or a dump truck to carry you and your family to the store?

Instead of an OS and tablet pretending to be a laptop, why not just make the screen 13" or 15" and offer a real laptop experience? I'm not limiting myself. I'm using the right tool for the job. MS wants you to think the laptop and tablet os is like a spork, but there is a reason sporks did not replace forks and spoons.
Well I'm not arguing that YOU need it, I can see that you don't. But for my purposes it works extremely well. I do my intake notes with stylus/handwriting recognition so the tablet form factor works well for me. Later in the day I sit down to write encounter notes and reports so the laptop/mouse mode works well for that. Do I want to carry a laptop AND a tablet to work with me?

As for the screen size, here is where your lack of foresight is hindering you. The beauty of having so many OEMs is that we are going to get tons and tons of different designs. Want a 13" or 15" tablet/laptop? An OEM will eventually make one. How about a 20" screen tablet? http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/...1094048/review There you go. You can't stick your head in the sand and think every tablet is going to be 10.1", that is the Apple way of thinking.

In the end I would assume you feel the same about the ipad, it's a tablet as well. I can anticipate your response, that the ipad has "apps", apps with big buttons and large fonts which work in the tablet world. This is confusing because windows has apps as well, it's the beginning for them and their apps will flourish, I wouldn't doubt the marketing and cash Microsoft has. Nothing is stopping you from using a windows tablet as a dumb tablet like an ipad or android device. But if you want to run a windows only program, or if you want a real laptop, etc you have that choice. Certainly no one is stupid enough to be saying this will replace someone who needs a 15" laptop, in that case then they would purchase a 15" laptop, doh? (or purchase a 15" tablet which converts to a laptop).

Like I said, no one is forcing you to touch the screen if you are in laptop mode. It's not a question of an OS and tablet "pretending" to be a laptop, IT IS A LAPTOP. How is your laptop different than my tablet docked into a keyboard? What your screen is larger? I'll just buy a larger tablet. You have a desktop on your laptop? I have a desktop as well. You have a large spacious keyboard with a trackpad on it? So does mine. So in what way would you be limiting yourself if you had a windows tablet docked as opposed to a laptop? I'll tell you, NONE. But the converse is not true, if I had a laptop I would be limiting myself in many ways.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 07:11 AM   #54
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Well I'm not arguing that YOU need it, I can see that you don't. But for my purposes it works extremely well. I do my intake notes with stylus/handwriting recognition so the tablet form factor works well for me. Later in the day I sit down to write encounter notes and reports so the laptop/mouse mode works well for that. Do I want to carry a laptop AND a tablet to work with me?

As for the screen size, here is where your lack of foresight is hindering you. The beauty of having so many OEMs is that we are going to get tons and tons of different designs. Want a 13" or 15" tablet/laptop? An OEM will eventually make one. How about a 20" screen tablet? http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/...1094048/review There you go. You can't stick your head in the sand and think every tablet is going to be 10.1", that is the Apple way of thinking.

In the end I would assume you feel the same about the ipad, it's a tablet as well. I can anticipate your response, that the ipad has "apps", apps with big buttons and large fonts which work in the tablet world. This is confusing because windows has apps as well, it's the beginning for them and their apps will flourish, I wouldn't doubt the marketing and cash Microsoft has. Nothing is stopping you from using a windows tablet as a dumb tablet like an ipad or android device. But if you want to run a windows only program, or if you want a real laptop, etc you have that choice. Certainly no one is stupid enough to be saying this will replace someone who needs a 15" laptop, in that case then they would purchase a 15" laptop, doh? (or purchase a 15" tablet which converts to a laptop).

Like I said, no one is forcing you to touch the screen if you are in laptop mode. It's not a question of an OS and tablet "pretending" to be a laptop, IT IS A LAPTOP. How is your laptop different than my tablet docked into a keyboard? What your screen is larger? I'll just buy a larger tablet. You have a desktop on your laptop? I have a desktop as well. You have a large spacious keyboard with a trackpad on it? So does mine. So in what way would you be limiting yourself if you had a windows tablet docked as opposed to a laptop? I'll tell you, NONE. But the converse is not true, if I had a laptop I would be limiting myself in many ways.
What you see as a benefit, I see as a compromise. The idea that a tool needs to be all things to all people automatically sets it up for compromises. Instead of this idea of making one piece of hardware operate as two things, why not just have a system where whatever you do on any of your devices gets moved to all other devices you own, or even allow you to use another device not your own where you simply log in and have access to all your docs and apps?

So you use your tablet for patient intake early in the day using some hospital provided patient management/intake app using either on-screen keyboard, handwriting or slider/button actions. Then later in the day you jump onto a desktop computer, log in, and write detailed notes by patient on the desktop hospital program, reviewing what you entered on your tablet in the morning.

You don't have to carry a laptop and a tablet around. One is designed to be mobile and the other can be stationery. That's how I use my system. What I do on my phone, tablet and laptop are all synced together. I don't have to compromise by using one device that may work great for some actions, but not others - too small screen on tablet for use in laptop mode for example or having to carry around a keyboard cover with the tablet, just so you can use it in the off-chance you'll need it.

Yes, OEM's may drive change to offer other formats, but I wouldn't hold my breath there. PC OEM's have not exactly been known for innovative thinking over the past 20 years. They're more driven to copying what each is doing and simply try to offer the lowest price (which I've noted before). It's strange how this is the fact of the PC world. There just are not the same options you see in say the automotive industry - where you can buy cheap if you want or spend more and get a significantly different/better product. Every PC maker simply competes on price, working to cheapen, not improve, their products in order to drive sales.

I don't live my life that way, although I know a lot of people do. I'd rather pay more to get a better designed, higher quality, product. It's true with the clothes I buy, the food I buy, the car I drive, etc. You may be different.
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Old Dec 3, 2012, 01:34 PM   #55
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What you see as a benefit, I see as a compromise. The idea that a tool needs to be all things to all people automatically sets it up for compromises. Instead of this idea of making one piece of hardware operate as two things, why not just have a system where whatever you do on any of your devices gets moved to all other devices you own, or even allow you to use another device not your own where you simply log in and have access to all your docs and apps?

So you use your tablet for patient intake early in the day using some hospital provided patient management/intake app using either on-screen keyboard, handwriting or slider/button actions. Then later in the day you jump onto a desktop computer, log in, and write detailed notes by patient on the desktop hospital program, reviewing what you entered on your tablet in the morning.

You don't have to carry a laptop and a tablet around. One is designed to be mobile and the other can be stationery. That's how I use my system. What I do on my phone, tablet and laptop are all synced together. I don't have to compromise by using one device that may work great for some actions, but not others - too small screen on tablet for use in laptop mode for example or having to carry around a keyboard cover with the tablet, just so you can use it in the off-chance you'll need it.

Yes, OEM's may drive change to offer other formats, but I wouldn't hold my breath there. PC OEM's have not exactly been known for innovative thinking over the past 20 years. They're more driven to copying what each is doing and simply try to offer the lowest price (which I've noted before). It's strange how this is the fact of the PC world. There just are not the same options you see in say the automotive industry - where you can buy cheap if you want or spend more and get a significantly different/better product. Every PC maker simply competes on price, working to cheapen, not improve, their products in order to drive sales.

I don't live my life that way, although I know a lot of people do. I'd rather pay more to get a better designed, higher quality, product. It's true with the clothes I buy, the food I buy, the car I drive, etc. You may be different.
I'm still not seeing it, what specifically are you compromising? I'm still curious as I haven't seen what it may be. As for my work habit, I appreciate your guess as to how I work but I wish it was that easy. I have to hop from site to site some days, there are no HIPAA compliant programs on the ipad that I'm aware of, at least non proprietary ones. Windows allows me to securely transmit data which would get me in big trouble if it was not secure, but I need that at every location I travel to. Once again, I'm not going to bring a laptop and a tablet with me everywhere I go. Additionally not using a desktop, for example, is not a compromise for me. Why would it be? Isn't the fact that you carry a laptop (if you do) a compromise from using a desktop? Isn't the fact that you use a desktop a compromise from using a supercomputer? Sounds ridiculous, but it's rather similar, everything you can categorize into a compromise if you really wanted to.

As for quality, I think we just see things differently. While I won't buy the surface pro, the thing just screams incredible quality to me. Watch the keynote, read up on how it was made, etc etc. I would gladly put up the surface hardware quality next to the ipad, and certainly against any laptop or other tablet.

On the same topic I'd MUCH rather pay for things that accomplish many tasks as efficiently as multiple devices, that may not necessarily be the surface pro, but for me it is one of the cloverfield tablets which I haven't found a compromise to (and you have not either).
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Old Jan 24, 2013, 01:29 PM   #56
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I've never owned a Microsoft product and I'm seriously thinking of selling my galaxy note 10.1 for this. The active digitizer, pen and full OS are a huge selling point for me. I'll be finally able to run full software applications(Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver)on a tablet for a reasonable price. Any students or designers in the same boat?
Yep, I will try one one out a Microsoft store. Two reasons: One, I need a relatively modern PC laptop for work even if I BYOD my own mac and use it as my primary. Second, I need a tablet with a pen input, not stylus.

Someone needs to do something with wacom technology because wacom certainly isn't. I need a wacom pen display tablet/computer with good build quality, no ridiculous bulky weird adapters, and hopefully not have to sell my organs to get that.

Proof of the pudding will be in the performance. In particular how the pen works (eraser function is key) and responsiveness. If this this can't keep up with me or there are weird issues I will return it.

However, if/when Apple does the same thing - Mac/iOS tablet/laptop with Wacom compatibility, I will dropkick the Surface out of the nearest high window and laugh like a hyena.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 03:43 AM   #57
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No one would be foolish enough to buy the Surface, seriously
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 07:55 AM   #58
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They need to work on price and battery life before these take off and become popular.

4 hours battery life is terrible.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:39 AM   #59
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You guys should note that the battery tests done by websites like the Verge and Engadget cycle a webpage load over and over with full brightness. It is just to determine charge length with 100% load for multiple hours. These battery gauntlet tests are not indicative of actual use. It will more likely be around 6 hours.... much like existing ultrabook offerings. You aren't going to be hammering your wifi, display and processor at full load for 4 hours straight. You will be using it but these tests stress these devices as hard as possible for the battery.
So, you think that a full-brightness, web-browsing is a torture test for portables? Or just the Pro? And do you think they tested it differently than they do other tablets and laptops??

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No one would be foolish enough to buy the Surface, seriously
Oh, yes they would. And 90% of them will end up returning the thing.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:56 AM   #60
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No one would be foolish enough to buy the Surface, seriously
Very well thought out and supported viewpoint, kudos!

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They need to work on price and battery life before these take off and become popular.

4 hours battery life is terrible.
Same price and battery life as an ultrabook, which is the market they are targeting. I'd be pretty happy with the 5-6 hours the surface pro will be getting in light of having a REAL computer at my fingertips. Next year haswell CPU will raise those battery numbers, and bay trail will bring the atom variant closer to ivy bridge power.

Seriously, compare a MacBook Air price with the surface pro, then factor in all the incredible extras you get with the pro. If you are comparing the pro to the ipad then you've failed horribly right out of the gate, try a mulligan.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:14 AM   #61
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Very well thought out and supported viewpoint, kudos!

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Same price and battery life as an ultrabook, which is the market they are targeting. I'd be pretty happy with the 5-6 hours the surface pro will be getting in light of having a REAL computer at my fingertips. Next year haswell CPU will raise those battery numbers, and bay trail will bring the atom variant closer to ivy bridge power.

Seriously, compare a MacBook Air price with the surface pro, then factor in all the incredible extras you get with the pro. If you are comparing the pro to the ipad then you've failed horribly right out of the gate, try a mulligan.
Are you gonna buy one?
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:29 AM   #62
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Are you gonna buy one?
Absolutely, yes.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:31 AM   #63
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Very well thought out and supported viewpoint, kudos!

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Same price and battery life as an ultrabook, which is the market they are targeting. I'd be pretty happy with the 5-6 hours the surface pro will be getting in light of having a REAL computer at my fingertips. Next year haswell CPU will raise those battery numbers, and bay trail will bring the atom variant closer to ivy bridge power.

Seriously, compare a MacBook Air price with the surface pro, then factor in all the incredible extras you get with the pro. If you are comparing the pro to the ipad then you've failed horribly right out of the gate, try a mulligan.
Do you really think ultrabooks only get 4 hours? The ones I have seen are 6+
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:31 AM   #64
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Very well thought out and supported viewpoint, kudos![COLOR="#808080"]

Seriously, compare a MacBook Air price with the surface pro, then factor in all the incredible extras you get with the pro. If you are comparing the pro to the ipad then you've failed horribly right out of the gate, try a mulligan.
I'd rather have the Macbook Air and iPad...
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:35 AM   #65
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So, you think that a full-brightness, web-browsing is a torture test for portables? Or just the Pro? And do you think they tested it differently than they do other tablets and laptops??

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Oh, yes they would. And 90% of them will end up returning the thing.
Their tests run the screen at full brightness and constantly refresh the webpage over and over ever second. It taxes the screen, the processor and the data connection. Also... no, I do not think they tested it otherwise. The point I am trying to make is that isn't an everyday use scenario. You don't sit there F5ing a page all day for 8 hours straight. My iPad got 9 hours according to the test and it lasts much longer for me, the Surface got 8.5 hours according to the test and it lasts much longer for me. Both with heavy use. It represents the most extreme use case.

Also we are basing the 5 hour assumption on the Microsoft quote saying half the battery life of the Surface Pro in comparison to the battery tests done on the original Surface. No one has done a test on the Pro yet. It could line up right with what we think or it could be even longer... maybe in the 6 hour range.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:35 AM   #66
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I'd rather have the Macbook Air and iPad...
then you are really talking about a whole new level of $$
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:39 AM   #67
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Absolutely, yes.
Maybe you could be the unofficial Macrumors guinea pig for the Surface Pro?

Write up a review complete with images and whatnot?

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then you are really talking about a whole new level of $$
Not to speak for anyone, but what he could mean is that spending the extra coin on two devices that don't compromise on what they do is worth it to him?
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:52 AM   #68
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then you are really talking about a whole new level of $$
That might be a problem for some, but I'd still rather have the Macbook Air and iPad. In fact, that is a combo that I actually own. Pricier, true, but it was worth the extra expense to me.

If price is an issue, I'd probably pass on the Surface still because there are cheaper Windows 8 based solutions.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:06 AM   #69
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Do you really think ultrabooks only get 4 hours? The ones I have seen are 6+
The pro will most likely get 5-6 with real world use versus stress testing, but we won't know for a couple of weeks or at least until real reviews start coming in, plus it's possible MS will use the newest lower wattage ivy bridge CPU which will give it more battery life.

My 13" air gets close to 6 hours, but my wife's 11" is lucky to get 5, of course it all depends how you use them so everyone's case is different. Both our subjective experiences can be vastly different.

For a more logical comparison Apple states the 11" air gets 5 hours.

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Maybe you could be the unofficial Macrumors guinea pig for the Surface Pro?

Write up a review complete with images and whatnot?

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Not to speak for anyone, but what he could mean is that spending the extra coin on two devices that don't compromise on what they do is worth it to him?
Sure, I can't wait.

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That might be a problem for some, but I'd still rather have the Macbook Air and iPad. In fact, that is a combo that I actually own. Pricier, true, but it was worth the extra expense to me.

If price is an issue, I'd probably pass on the Surface still because there are cheaper Windows 8 based solutions.
That's all good if it works for you. For me I'd rather have one device than 2 redundant devices which alone cannot fulfill my needs, even together an air and ipad STILL don't do everything a surface does, but once again that's my needs versus yours.

As for cheaper win8 solutions, once again they will bring compromises, depending on your needs of course. Certainly the clover trail win8 tablets will be a much better choice for some, those are the tablets which should be directly compared to the ipad in ALL categories. The pro isn't for everyone, just as an ultrabook isn't for everyone. Sure you can buy a $300 laptop at best buy, but that still doesn't invalidate that ultrabooks are priced in a different range for what I would think are obvious reasons.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:12 AM   #70
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The pro will most likely get 5-6 with real world use versus stress testing, but we won't know for a couple of weeks or at least until real reviews start coming in, plus it's possible MS will use the newest lower wattage ivy bridge CPU which will give it more battery life.

My 13" air gets close to 6 hours, but my wife's 11" is lucky to get 5, of course it all depends how you use them so everyone's case is different. Both our subjective experiences can be vastly different.

For a more logical comparison Apple states the 11" air gets 5 hours.

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Sure, I can't wait.

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That's all good if it works for you. For me I'd rather have one device than 2 redundant devices which alone cannot fulfill my needs, even together an air and ipad STILL don't do everything a surface does, but once again that's my needs versus yours.

As for cheaper win8 solutions, once again they will bring compromises, depending on your needs of course. Certainly the clover trail win8 tablets will be a much better choice for some, those are the tablets which should be directly compared to the ipad in ALL categories. The pro isn't for everyone, just as an ultrabook isn't for everyone. Sure you can buy a $300 laptop at best buy, but that still doesn't invalidate that ultrabooks are priced in a different range for what I would think are obvious reasons.
I love the form factor of the 11", but that use to make me so mad....5 is really an overstatement IMO, and that is with very light usage. Hopefully haswell makes it 7ish
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 10:41 AM   #71
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even together an air and ipad STILL don't do everything a surface does,
I'm assuming you are refering to pressure sensitive pen input using the Pro's digitizer? Or are there other functions that the Surface Pro has that the iPad/Air don't that I'm not remembring?
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