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Old Feb 20, 2014, 06:49 PM   #151
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Ah Florida, where a white man's fears are more important than a black man's life.
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Old Feb 20, 2014, 07:04 PM   #152
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Ah Florida, where a white man's fears are more important than a black man's life.
You'd know this would be in Florida. A white man's self-serving, stated fears...
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Old Feb 20, 2014, 07:15 PM   #153
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It's utterly bizarre to me that you can be convicted of attempted murder, but not of murder itself even though one of the people you attempted to murder was killed in that act.

How on Earth does that makes sense to any deliberating juror?
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Old Feb 20, 2014, 07:41 PM   #154
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It's utterly bizarre to me that you can be convicted of attempted murder, but not of murder itself even though one of the people you attempted to murder was killed in that act.

How on Earth does that makes sense to any deliberating juror?
He murdered in his heart. - Jimmy Carter

Makes just a much sense.
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Old Feb 23, 2014, 08:46 PM   #155
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Added to first post:
Feb2014- Florida Man Guns returned to Man who Used STY defense after killing drinking buddy
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Old Feb 24, 2014, 06:14 PM   #156
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Oh my, how many people does this man have to shoot before he actually stays in jail...
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Old Feb 24, 2014, 07:54 PM   #157
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Oh my, how many people does this man have to shoot before he actually stays in jail...
It's ok, SYG makes it all right.
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Old Mar 14, 2014, 10:21 AM   #158
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Georgia Legislators Think Felons Should Be Able To Shoot You


This article comes from a consultant to The National Gun Victims Action Council, a "gun responsibility" advocacy group.

The CFG (Crazy for Guns- my term) movement good ole boys are going to run with this until they hit the end of their choke collars, blazing ahead full speed in Georgia. You all those establishments who have "No Guns Allowed" signs, well those are an impingement to licensed gun owners safety. In fact who even needs a license? That is just the tip of the iceberg. Will they keep what little sanity they still possess or give in to their gun love affair?

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Guns in K-12 schools? Check! Eliminating state licenses for gun dealers? But of course! Limit the governor’s powers to regulate guns during a “state emergency?” Can you say UN-led supranational hit squad riding shotgun aboard a black helicopter piloted by President Obama specifically coming to your house to take your handgun?!

It’s all in there folks, and then some. Every bit of paranoia and lack of interest in public health we’ve come to expect from the strange group of gun fondlers at the heart of today’s concealed- and open-carry movements. The belief that it is their “right” to carry a gun anywhere, anytime for any purpose...
Also carry your guns in churchs, bars, and college campuses. You don't even have to worry about being a licensed gun owner!

Here is the bestest craziest part:

Quote:
Those using a Stand Your Ground defense—you know, for when someone comes along with the especially threatening jumbo bag of Skittles—would no longer have to be in compliance with Georgia’s Criminal Code.
...even if you are a felon with an illegal gun. If you claim to see someone reaching for something, your are good to send the bullets flying. I'm not joking.

This link and blurb from original story (Media Matters)

Quote:
However under H.B. 875, "Stand Your Ground" claimants would no longer be required to have been in compliance with Chapter 11, Article 4, Part 3 of Georgia's criminal code. That part of Georgia's code includes provisions on carrying weapons on school grounds, carrying a handgun without a license, the possession of firearms by convicted felons, the possession of handguns by minors, and the discharging of a firearm "while under the influence of alcohol or drugs."
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 09:29 AM   #159
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Huntn is it your opinion that SYG laws lowers the justification necessary to use lethal force as self defense?
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 10:06 AM   #160
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Huntn is it your opinion that SYG laws lowers the justification necessary to use lethal force as self defense?
Absolutely, there is no longer any degrees of violence required to kill, simply being "messed with", and because the way the laws are written it offers the opportunity to take advantage of the premise of SYG in an effort to disguise what we used to call murder.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 12:51 PM   #161
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Absolutely, there is no longer any degrees of violence required to kill, simply being "messed with", and because the way the laws are written it offers the opportunity to take advantage of the premise of SYG in an effort to disguise what we used to call murder.
First I want to admit I haven't researched the SYG laws much but I find your characterization of them a tad hard to believe and suspect its likely an exaggerated misrepresentation.

I'd like to research it so, could you pls point me to a state with a SYG law that has one standard for the use of lethal force under SYG and a different standard for a basic claim of self defense?
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 01:28 PM   #162
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First I want to admit I haven't researched the SYG laws much but I find your characterization of them a tad hard to believe and suspect its likely an exaggerated misrepresentation.

I'd like to research it so, could you pls point me to a state with a SYG law that has one standard for the use of lethal force under SYG and a different standard for a basic claim of self defense?
Look at Florida. I've not exaggerated anything. The statute has been posted in this forum on different occasions. It basically hinges on the standard that lethal force can be used when in the perception of the the licensed gun owner, they are in physical danger, the exact wording is "fear for their life". And this has been backed up in court. This is not dependent on an independent legal evaluation of what should be considered fear for your life, but stated individual perception, ripe for abuse. In addition unless the Florida statute has been updated, it also says you can get into a physical altercation that you instigate, but if it develops to a point where you fear for your life, lethal force can be used. It's complete idiocy.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 01:47 PM   #163
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Look at Florida. I've not exaggerated anything. The statute has been posted in this forum on different occasions. It basically hinges on the standard that lethal force can be used when in the perception of the the licensed gun owner, they are in physical danger, the exact wording is "fear for their life". And this has been backed up in court. This is not dependent on an independent legal evaluation of what should be considered fear for your life, but stated individual perception, ripe for abuse. In addition unless the Florida statute has been updated, it also says you can get into a physical altercation that you instigate, but if it develops to a point where you fear for your life, lethal force can be used. It's complete idiocy.
Okay thank you I'll look into Florida.

My gut says the standard of when the use of lethal force is authorized is exactly the same under Florida SYG as it is under a claim of basic self defense in Florida. My gut further tells me under Florida law SYG or basic self defense lethal force is not authorized for simply being messed with.

My assumption is that Florida SYG merely removes a duty on a person to retreat before a situation deteriorates into one that authorizes the use of lethal force. It does not lower the bar of when lethal force is permitted. This is where I tend to have a difference with you. But I genuinely want to know if my gut is wrong so I will do the research under Florida law.

By the way, I wonder why Zimmerman went to court on a basic self defense claim instead of relying on the SYG law since according to you the SYG standard of lethal force would be lower?
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 01:57 PM   #164
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Huntn is it your opinion that SYG laws lowers the justification necessary to use lethal force as self defense?
Isn't that the point of SYG laws?: We didn't get to use them in places and circumstances we wanted to, so we passed this law to fix that.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 03:10 PM   #165
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Isn't that the point of SYG laws?: We didn't get to use them in places and circumstances we wanted to, so we passed this law to fix that.
Not to my knowledge. But I'm looking to know more so that's why I'm wading into the conversation and doing some research.

My assumption is the SYG law chances absolutely nothing when it comes to when lethal force can be used. What I'm hypothesizing is the SYG law merely removes a duty on a person to avoid a conflict before it potentially disintegrates into a situation where lethal force may be authorized. The standard of when lethal force can be used has not changed. But again I need to research it and become more educated.

By the way I am in no way expressing support or criticism of SYG laws.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 03:28 PM   #166
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My assumption is the SYG law chances absolutely nothing when it comes to when lethal force can be used.
SYG laws generally change one thing: the duty to retreat.

Before SYG laws, the statutes governing the use of lethal force usually have a clause mandating that a defender has a duty to retreat. If the attack does not abate even after retreating, then lethal force is justified. It's that "duty to retreat" that "stand your ground" specifically reverses.

Here's the Florida statute:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/.../0776.013.html

See section 3:
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
[Underline added]
"Any other place" refers to any place other than a home, because the statute covers home protection as well as self-defense outside the home.

Also note that statutes vary by state, so the specifics and situations also vary.


Google search terms:
florida stand your ground statute
florida deadly force statute
florida lethal force statute

You could probably substitute YourState for florida and find which laws apply to you.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 03:53 PM   #167
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Thank you chown33. I think your posting supports my contention that Florida SYG law does not change the standard of when lethal force is authorized it merely removes a duty of a person to avoid a situation.

In other words my following huntn tossing French fries at him does not rise to level of authorizing lethal force be used under basic self defense or SYG. The standards for using lethal force will be the same. Whereas if I'm running after him with a raised club, lethal force would likely be authorized under both.

I think I can understand the reasoning of those who advocate eliminating SYG laws and those who want them.

I obviously still have some research to do.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 05:04 PM   #168
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Okay thank you I'll look into Florida.

My gut says the standard of when the use of lethal force is authorized is exactly the same under Florida SYG as it is under a claim of basic self defense in Florida. My gut further tells me under Florida law SYG or basic self defense lethal force is not authorized for simply being messed with.

My assumption is that Florida SYG merely removes a duty on a person to retreat before a situation deteriorates into one that authorizes the use of lethal force. It does not lower the bar of when lethal force is permitted. This is where I tend to have a difference with you. But I genuinely want to know if my gut is wrong so I will do the research under Florida law.

By the way, I wonder why Zimmerman went to court on a basic self defense claim instead of relying on the SYG law since according to you the SYG standard of lethal force would be lower?
Leave no doubt in your mind, the bar has been lowered to the ground. What readily comes to mind is the Taco Bell shooting in Arizona (Phoenix?) where a teen walking his dog felt he nearly got hit by a car going through the drive through. Aggravated, he approached the car addressing the driver in a negative manner. I'm not sure if he yelled. With ZERO physicality, the driver of the car shot this teen, using "feared for my life" cited SYG and he walked free. Thank you FU'd in-love-with guns legal system.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 06:37 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Leave no doubt in your mind, the bar has been lowered to the ground. What readily comes to mind is the Taco Bell shooting in Arizona (Phoenix?) where a teen walking his dog felt he nearly got hit by a car going through the drive through. Aggravated, he approached the car addressing the driver in a negative manner. I'm not sure if he yelled. With ZERO physicality, the driver of the car shot this teen, using "feared for my life" cited SYG and he walked free. Thank you FU'd in-love-with guns legal system.

Quote:
PHOENIX -- A 22-year-old man has been indicted in the shooting death of another man at a Taco Bell drive-thru in Phoenix.

Cordell Lamar Jude was charged with one count of second-degree murder for the shooting death of Daniel Adkins, 29.
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Man-cha...164047046.html
Quote:
Cordell Jude Found Guilty of Manslaughter in Death of Daniel Adkins

PHOENIX, AZ (November 20, 2013) – Cordell Lamar Jude (D.O.B. 1/10/1990) is guilty of Manslaughter for recklessly causing the death of Daniel Adkins after a verbal altercation in a parking lot last year, according to a jury verdict delivered today. The jury found Jude not guilty of 2nd Degree Murder. He faces a possible prison term ranging from seven to 21 years when he is sentenced on January 8, 2014.
http://www.maricopacountyattorney.or...el-Adkins.html
He deserves jail.

edit: He received 7 years.

Last edited by webbuzz; Mar 15, 2014 at 06:42 PM.
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Old Mar 15, 2014, 09:31 PM   #170
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He deserves jail.

edit: He received 7 years.
Thanks for the update. The last article I had seen was this CNN account: Unstable ground: The fine line between self-defense and murder that profiles several SYG cases where the shooter at the Taco Bell was not (initially) charged.
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