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Old Aug 16, 2013, 04:48 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
Don't be fooled by the carefully moderated vocal intonation, breadth of vocabulary, and ultra smooth edits. NPR is masterful propaganda for the intellectual class.

Have you ever heard a problem discussed on NPR for which the most favorably presented solution was not larger government and/or more regulation? Seriously listen for a week and do a count for yourself.

NPR is about a neutral as Fox.
That's a weird axis to discuss bias. I'm not sure how you quantify that. For instance, if there's a story about Egypt and we discuss intervention, is that for larger government? In a story that talked about submarine patent companies, would an argue for a revision to the patent system be a similar argument?

Or a story about North Carolina or Texas' new anti-abortion measures?

A "count" needs to be quantified to have any meaning and I'm curious how you weighted issues along a More Government/Less Government axis.


Quote:
...Why not?

They do support the current NCIS system, and revisions to it to include better screening for mental health.
The current changes aren't there to make regulations stronger. Generally speaking, the revisions are sold as modernization, but also make guns easier to purchase. The NRA is perfectly willing to change the law, but they want guns more available and easier to get.

The NRA's push for "an active mental health" database is about breaking FERPA, not adding a new regulation for gun purchases, and when you couple that with the NRA's move to weaken background checks in states like Virginia, you can see that's more posturing than actually support.

That said, sure we can say the NRA is pushing for one new regulation with gun purchases.

Quote:
...I'm guessing that you've probably never actually tried to buy a gun (most who think gun control is lax haven't). The background check process is extensive, thorough, and reasonably efficient - even at gun shows.
I've gone through the background check. It's not that extensive compared to other background checks, but it's fairly thorough and reasonable efficient.

Also, I never made the argument that gun control was lax. I merely said something like the NRA was a political organization with all the grace of a trapped badger.
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 04:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
No, it's just short-hand for those easily fooled into believing that moderate intonations, large-ish vocabularies, and overzealous editing are positively correlated with rational thinking and logical arguments.

So it's only the ...ah...non-intellectuals among us who are capable of the critical thinking necessary to evaluate what they hear and not be fooled by "moderate intonations, large-ish vocabularies, and overzealous editing "?

It's tough being a dumb, easily fooled, intellectual...
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 05:18 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
That's a weird axis to discuss bias. I'm not sure how you quantify that. For instance, if there's a story about Egypt and we discuss intervention, is that for larger government? In a story that talked about submarine patent companies, would an argue for a revision to the patent system be a similar argument?

Or a story about North Carolina or Texas' new anti-abortion measures?

A "count" needs to be quantified to have any meaning and I'm curious how you weighted issues along a More Government/Less Government axis.
It's not really that weird an axis and it's not that hard to quantify. Maybe:

Does the favored NPR solution call for the exercise of or increase in government power, or does it not? It usually does.

One could also nuance that with a measure of centralization for cases in which there is the use or increase of government power at different levels.


Quote:
The current changes aren't there to make regulations stronger. Generally speaking, the revisions are sold as modernization, but also make guns easier to purchase. The NRA is perfectly willing to change the law, but they want guns more available and easier to get.

The NRA's push for "an active mental health" database is about breaking FERPA, not adding a new regulation for gun purchases, and when you couple that with the NRA's move to weaken background checks in states like Virginia, you can see that's more posturing than actually support.

That said, sure we can say the NRA is pushing for one new regulation with gun purchases.
Just because the NRA takes the stance that the current level of regulation is too high, doesn't make them anti-regulation.


Quote:
I've gone through the background check. It's not that extensive compared to other background checks, but it's fairly thorough and reasonable efficient.

Also, I never made the argument that gun control was lax. I merely said something like the NRA was a political organization with all the grace of a trapped badger.
Fair enough. When I said extensive, I would have been better served to use the term pervasive. NCIS certainly isn't as extensive as a security clearance or an investment manager background check, but it shouldn't be.

And the trapped badger analogy is probably a good one - just the way I want them when defending my right to bear arms in the face of an increasingly authoritarian government!

>

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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
So it's only the ...ah...non-intellectuals among us who are capable of the critical thinking necessary to evaluate what they hear and not be fooled by "moderate intonations, large-ish vocabularies, and overzealous editing "?
Not at all. But in my experience, intellectuals are no better able to to apply critical thinking to propaganda which is carefully constructed to appeal to them than are non-intellectuals; they just think they are - which is actually more dangerously ignorant.

The general belief among the intellectual class that NPR is at all neutral lends credence to that experience.

>
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 07:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
It's not really that weird an axis and it's not that hard to quantify. Maybe:

Does the favored NPR solution call for the exercise of or increase in government power, or does it not? It usually does.

One could also nuance that with a measure of centralization for cases in which there is the use or increase of government power at different levels.
Studies in bias look for cognitive, demographic, or political bias. A review looking at media reports on such an axis might be possible, but again, you'd have to really define the terms.

I would bet that Fox News would rank pretty high on the need for government intervention and centralization since the news organization has been widely supportive of wiretapping, the use of torture, anti-abortion regulation, etc.

Which I would argue is far more dangerous than making sure the financial industry has enough cash on hand to support themselves in a declining market, or restricting semi-automatic rifles.

Quote:
...Just because the NRA takes the stance that the current level of regulation is too high, doesn't make them anti-regulation.
The NRA's support for NICS remains soft, and while David Keene has publicly stated that machine guns should remain illegal, that's not much regulation.

Quote:
...Fair enough. When I said extensive, I would have been better served to use the term pervasive. NCIS certainly isn't as extensive as a security clearance or an investment manager background check, but it shouldn't be.
Pervasive is the wrong word, since it means ever present, as if NICS constantly checks your background, or that you have to apply to NICS on varied transactions like the grocery store.

The background check is detailed.

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...And the trapped badger analogy is probably a good one - just the way I want them when defending my right to bear arms in the face of an increasingly authoritarian government!
Right. The NRA has done a fantastic job of protecting against Fourth Amendment seizures, First Amendment limitations, and Eighth Amendment offenses.

Oh wait. That's the ACLU. I keep getting them confused.


As for the badger analogy, there's a certain heroism in being truculent, but if the damn thing keeps trying to bite me, I'm going to struggle with the idea that it's a wonderful creature.

Such is my relationship with the NRA, the snarling colony of Second Amendment hacks who make it hard to do anything smart about guns in America.

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...Not at all. But in my experience, intellectuals are no better able to to apply critical thinking to propaganda which is carefully constructed to appeal to them than are non-intellectuals; they just think they are - which is actually more dangerously ignorant.
The people who don't apply critical thinking are not intellectuals, they're poseurs.

Quote:
...The general belief among the intellectual class that NPR is at all neutral lends credence to that experience.

>
NPR is better than most and has the ability to follow stories other outlets do not in a generally smart and thoughtful way.

The question remains, is there a news outlet you consider valuable?
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Old Aug 16, 2013, 08:55 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
NPR is better than most and has the ability to follow stories other outlets do not in a generally smart and thoughtful way.

The question remains, is there a news outlet you consider valuable?
I wouldn't say its better than most. NPR is at least as propagandist as as Fox, just with a velvet lining that's been specifically tailored for the "Uni" set.

The BBC is better generally speaking; it's far more neutral, and (somewhat surprisingly) less of a mouthpiece for centralized authoritarian control of society by the "benevolent" intelligentsia.

>
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 08:10 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
Have you ever heard a problem discussed on NPR for which the most favorably presented solution was not larger government and/or more regulation? Seriously listen for a week and do a count for yourself.
They don't present any solutions. It's news; they tell you what's happening.
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 10:00 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
They don't present any solutions. It's news; they tell you what's happening.
And that is what many Germans thought listening to the product of Goebbels' ministry in 1933.

Seriously, listen more closely.

>
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 06:01 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
And that is what many Germans thought listening to the product of Goebbels' ministry in 1933.

Seriously, listen more closely.
Seriously, i do, and I think you're full of crap. Got any citations for your accusations?

Also, hyperbole much? Or was Goebbels actually seen as an especially neutral party at the time?
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 08:09 PM   #134
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Seriously, i do, and I think you're full of crap. Got any citations for your accusations?
Seriously, he didn't just try to compare NPR to Goebbels and Nazi Germany, did he?
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Old Aug 17, 2013, 09:12 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
Is that a nasty reference to those capable of ratiocination?
Sounds more like an insult.

----------

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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
Yeah! I mean - wait a second...

Aren't places like that largely responsible for the fact that we are no longer subjects of the British Crown?

>
If that was the case, the Constitution would read more like a menu and bar tab.

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Old Aug 19, 2013, 05:01 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
I wouldn't say its better than most. NPR is at least as propagandist as as Fox, just with a velvet lining that's been specifically tailored for the "Uni" set.

The BBC is better generally speaking; it's far more neutral, and (somewhat surprisingly) less of a mouthpiece for centralized authoritarian control of society by the "benevolent" intelligentsia...
I disagree about NPR, but I do think the BBC does a very good job. What do you think of the New York Times?

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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
And that is what many Germans thought listening to the product of Goebbels' ministry in 1933.

Seriously, listen more closely.

>
Godwin's exists for a reason. This isn't going to add anything to the discussion.
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Old Aug 19, 2013, 08:27 PM   #137
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Seriously, he didn't just try to compare NPR to Goebbels and Nazi Germany, did he?
NPR is much slicker and more subtle. It's like National Socialist Worker's Party propaganda with 21st century technique.

Same end goal though...

a huge all-powerful State that supersedes the will of the individual for "the collective good."

>

----------

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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
I disagree about NPR, but I do think the BBC does a very good job. What do you think of the New York Times?
Used to be better than it is. Now its pretty much at print version of NPR - though not as plainly and obviously totally biased. Generally speaking though the level of "journalism" there should be embarrassing for the hacks printing it. Pro-Publica does a much better job on MUCH less money.

It's funny that you guys think NPR is neutral. Your responses are pretty much exactly those of big-government conservatives when you tell them that Fox isn't "fair and balanced."

Just as blind but speaking with a differently intoned voice.

>

----------

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Originally Posted by hulugu View Post
Godwin's exists for a reason. This isn't going to add anything to the discussion.
That's a really stupid and dangerous meme. When something is fascist and totalitarian, and in some cases follows the same pattern as the Nazi rise to power, you should call it for what it is and compare it to what they were.

>

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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
If that was the case, the Constitution would read more like a menu and bar tab.

Ha! It pretty much does (or maybe more like a set of country club rules).

>

----------

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Originally Posted by lannister80 View Post
Seriously, i do, and I think you're full of crap. Got any citations for your accusations?

Also, hyperbole much? Or was Goebbels actually seen as an especially neutral party at the time?
When I feel like taking the time I'll pick a day and go through the ME or ATC stories one-by one, you can really just pick any day and pretty much any story and reverse engineer the editing to lay bare the ridiculous bias.

If I had the time I would create a blog that did that everyday called Not Particularly Reliable News.

Alas I have a family to feed and no trust fund with which to do it.

>
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Old Aug 20, 2013, 12:55 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
...Used to be better than it is. Now its pretty much at print version of NPR - though not as plainly and obviously totally biased. Generally speaking though the level of "journalism" there should be embarrassing for the hacks printing it. Pro-Publica does a much better job on MUCH less money.
I know people at all three and I think ProPublica does fantastic work (along with CIR).


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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
...It's funny that you guys think NPR is neutral. Your responses are pretty much exactly those of big-government conservatives when you tell them that Fox isn't "fair and balanced."

Just as blind but speaking with a differently intoned voice.
And, there you go running to the ad hominem. Easier ground to argue that everyone is just blind rather than acknowledging your own capacity for bias.

Quote:
...That's a really stupid and dangerous meme. When something is fascist and totalitarian, and in some cases follows the same pattern as the Nazi rise to power, you should call it for what it is and compare it to what they were.

...
I think there's value in acknowledging fascist elements or ideology, but there's also an easy emotional button to make just about any argument (see protect the children or terrorism) without a ready evaluation of its merits.

So, arguing that NPR is the American office of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda makes for a great soundbite, but in actuality a troublesome simile that better represents your bias rather than the complex reality of news-gathering.

There's often confusion among people not in the business that because a story isn't covered, or isn't covered from the news angle they like best, it's biased. And, yet newsgathering is much more complex.

I'm not going to argue that NPR is necessary centrist (radically, I don't think any news organization should be conservative, but that's another argument), but again, the argument that because it supports "big government" solutions, it's part of the road to genocide and the invasion of Europe is just wrong.
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Old Aug 20, 2013, 08:43 AM   #139
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And, there you go running to the ad hominem. Easier ground to argue that everyone is just blind rather than acknowledging your own capacity for bias.
I am biased toward liberty based in the fundamental respect for the Equality of Being of all people - and not ashamed to say so.

That I am biased, however, does not make NPR less so. Nor does it change my observation that left-wingers are the pot and big-government right-wingers the kettle.


Quote:
I'm not going to argue that NPR is necessary centrist (radically, I don't think any news organization should be conservative, but that's another argument), but again, the argument that because it supports "big government" solutions, it's part of the road to genocide and the invasion of Europe is just wrong.
Perhaps, but arguing that the fundamental philosophy of state supremacy over the individual as the expression of the supreme will of the collective is at the root of both NPR and Nazi propaganda isn't so "wrong." Whether or not the centralization of authority will take you down the road to war and genocide is up for grabs, but the historical record's not good...

>
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Old Aug 20, 2013, 02:48 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
I am biased toward liberty based in the fundamental respect for the Equality of Being of all people - and not ashamed to say so.

That I am biased, however, does not make NPR less so. Nor does it change my observation that left-wingers are the pot and big-government right-wingers the kettle.
My point is your bias may be coloring your assessment and so NPR may be primarily more objective despite your arguments that they are not. That's why we don't use gut feelings to assess bias, the cognitive biases are too varied to make any decision useful, instead we use statistical tools to evaluate and discriminate the difference.

I suspect your bias is built on a unclear measure of "liberty" and your sample suffers from convenience bias, sample bias, etc. I would also argue that should someone cross-code those measures, the agreement would be low, making the entire study problematic.

NPR may be incredible biased, per you definition, but I think your argument is based on a pile of biases.

Quote:
...Perhaps, but arguing that the fundamental philosophy of state supremacy over the individual as the expression of the supreme will of the collective is at the root of both NPR and Nazi propaganda isn't so "wrong." Whether or not the centralization of authority will take you down the road to war and genocide is up for grabs, but the historical record's not good...

>
First, I dispute the idea that NPR supports "state supremacy over the individual." Second, I dispute the idea that supporting some state supremacy leads to centralization of authority. And, I dispute the idea that collective authority is a road to genocide and war.

Your phrase "up for grabs" is a huge yawning gap of consequence and Cliff notes history.
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Old Aug 20, 2013, 08:44 PM   #141
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First, I dispute the idea that NPR supports "state supremacy over the individual."
NPR does an good job of archiving both its written news and audio programming.

Anybody seriously contending they support "state supremacy over the individual" should be able to find ample evidence to bring to this discussion.

My bet is that no such effort will be put towards providing evidence to back his claim.
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 12:29 AM   #142
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NPR does an good job of archiving both its written news and audio programming.

Anybody seriously contending they support "state supremacy over the individual" should be able to find ample evidence to bring to this discussion.

My bet is that no such effort will be put towards providing evidence to back his claim.
As I said above when I have some spare time I'll create an entire thread reviewing the big government bias in ME or ATC stories for that day, it's something I've been meaning to do anyway.

I'm still quite stunned that so many of you find NPR to be neutral. It's somewhat depressing really, in a dystopic sort of way.

>
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 01:07 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by NewishMacGuy View Post
I am biased toward liberty based in the fundamental respect for the Equality of Being of all people - and not ashamed to say so.

That I am biased, however, does not make NPR less so. Nor does it change my observation that left-wingers are the pot and big-government right-wingers the kettle.




Perhaps, but arguing that the fundamental philosophy of state supremacy over the individual as the expression of the supreme will of the collective is at the root of both NPR and Nazi propaganda isn't so "wrong." Whether or not the centralization of authority will take you down the road to war and genocide is up for grabs, but the historical record's not good...

>
I just laugh when I read your posts. They are so sophomorically earnest and you obviously have a silver tongue and when you trash NPR, I laugh all the louder because of your hypocrisy!
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Old Aug 21, 2013, 01:26 AM   #144
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As I said above when I have some spare time I'll create an entire thread reviewing the big government bias in ME or ATC stories for that day, it's something I've been meaning to do anyway.
Remember, you have to set a rubric that explains what "big government bias" means. You cannot just argue that a segment about the EPA supports big government because it doesn't criticize the agency's existence. The segment should support, either by direct reference (or by bias in sources) "big government" under that rubric.

And, remember you should compare that to the total output of ME or ATC. So, that would include, for instance, a story about Elmore Leonard.

There should also be a sample that makes sense—for instance, picking the healthcare debate period would be strapping the chicken.

Quote:
...I'm still quite stunned that so many of you find NPR to be neutral. It's somewhat depressing really, in a dystopic sort of way....
I don't consider NPR neutral. But, I also think bias is a continuum and that NPR covers a great many subjects well enough and avoids ideological bias. Noam Chomsky once argued that NPR was biased and I think his critique has some value.
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Old Aug 30, 2013, 03:28 AM   #145
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Because the only interests they truly speak for and care about are the profits of arms and weapons manufacturers.

They don't care about the general public AT ALL.
This. This. This. This. THIS!!!

It sickens me that the NRA parades around like this great defender of "the right to kill tyrants" or whatever the gun nuts in this country like to say. The only thing the NRA cares about is selling guns, and promoting the interests of the weapons industry.

What could be a decent-minded organization protecting the rights of gun-owners like myself, is instead essentially a think-tank that churns out talking points for the nation's troglodytes to scream at the families of people who've been hurt by gun violence. I'm sick of these scumbags pretending they're representing my rights at the national level!
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