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Old Jan 3, 2014, 07:41 PM   #326
unplugme71
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Originally Posted by peterdevries View Post
If that were the case than the NSA and Apple would avoid any publicity towards this at all. A public denial opens Apple up to a large amount of litigation if it turned out to be that they did cooperate with the NSA or whatever other organisation.

I'm more worried about organisations that don't comment on this at all.

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Do you have any sources for that? Or are you just speculating like many here?
What if Apple, being so large and public target, is forced by the NSA to say they are not involved with the NSA so that we the citizens think the NSA is not actually doing anything?
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 07:43 PM   #327
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[QUOTE=unplugme71;18588518]What if Apple, being so large and public target, is forced by the NSA to say they are not involved with the NSA so that we the citizens think the NSA is not actually doing anything?[/QUOTE]

That train left the station a long time ago!
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 08:58 PM   #328
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Seems like they're just going to go back spying. What can be done though? I'd assume that the majority of Americans don't understand this issue or simply don't care.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/01/03/government-surveillance-ruling-appeal/4308143/
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 09:05 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by sviato View Post
Seems like they're just going to go back spying. What can be done though? I'd assume that the majority of Americans don't understand this issue or simply don't care.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...ppeal/4308143/
Rand Paul suing NSA
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...tml?mid=google

Last edited by Dmunjal; Jan 3, 2014 at 11:09 PM.
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 10:01 PM   #330
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Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by sviato View Post
Seems like they're just going to go back spying. What can be done though? I'd assume that the majority of Americans don't understand this issue or simply don't care.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...ppeal/4308143/
Majority of Americans are clueless just how lucky they are.

We only care when it's late, well one day it will.

Kind of like smoking will kill you one day.

Point is willingly, not willingly, knowing not knowing does it really matter at the end of the day? Not really
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 10:54 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by cdmoore74 View Post
All Apple can do is deny working with the NSA. If the truth comes out every consumer in the world would question Apple.
Which truth is that exactly? And what are your sources?
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 11:16 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by impulse462 View Post
Honestly getting sick of all the lying. Clearly one side is lying. I somehow doubt the leaked documents are lies.

I love Apple but come on...
Apple certainly has a lot of industrial strength technologists on the payroll, and very elite execs. "We didn't know" strikes me as highly implausible.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi Master View Post
Majority of Americans are clueless just how lucky they are.

We only care when it's late, well one day it will.

Kind of like smoking will kill you one day.

Point is willingly, not willingly, knowing not knowing does it really matter at the end of the day? Not really
How then do you consider this majority lucky? Is ignorance really bliss? Well, maybe so...

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[QUOTE=Shrink;18588526]
Quote:
Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
What if Apple, being so large and public target, is forced by the NSA to say they are not involved with the NSA so that we the citizens think the NSA is not actually doing anything?[/QUOTE]

That train left the station a long time ago!
Afraid I agree, but not in a fatalistic way. To quote an old chess opponent who usually bested me, "There's always something you can do."

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dec. View Post
Which truth is that exactly? And what are your sources?
With apologies to the screenwriter for "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre": Sources? Sources??? We don't need no stinkin' sources!
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Old Jan 3, 2014, 11:42 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
What if Apple, being so large and public target, is forced by the NSA to say they are not involved with the NSA so that we the citizens think the NSA is not actually doing anything?
Forced? Your naivete is affecting. Anyone doing "movers and shakers" stuff is surely on board. That much is a tautology and for half of the equation Shrink is correct. Still, keep the faith. They need us, whether or not they know it.
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 12:29 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sviato View Post
Seems like they're just going to go back spying. What can be done though? I'd assume that the majority of Americans don't understand this issue or simply don't care.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...ppeal/4308143/
I think many more intuit the issue than there appear to be. The problem is that normal human behavior does not include obsessively spying on and controlling other humans and so more "natural" and cooperative folk can't empathize with those who have this frightening urge. If you are dealing with someone who looks, smells, talks and eats like you (and BTW also puts his pants on one leg at a time, like you) yet has motivations which you would never even imagine, let alone comprehend, you are at a disadvantage. Also, some folks are just afraid to even broach the subject, as they don't know who might be listening (yes, we are actually there and have been for a while, IMO).

You asked what can be done. One thing that occurs to me is to speak your heart forthrightly on the matter. This might not sound like much but it's something and I wouldn't discount the possible transformative effect. What have we got to lose? Is it possible to live a life worth living and be afraid of speaking truly to our fellow humans?
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 08:37 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by unplugme71 View Post
What if Apple, being so large and public target, is forced by the NSA to say they are not involved with the NSA so that we the citizens think the NSA is not actually doing anything?
They would be, which is exactly why you can't trust anyone besides yourself to secure your private data. If it goes on a proprietary operating system that is connected to the net, you simply have no way of knowing what might be happening to your data.

No reason to single Apple out though, the US government is the one forcing these corporations to spy on the people. They could get a secret court order to turn all Xbox one kinect sensors into terrorist monitoring devices and you wouldn't be the wiser.
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 10:50 AM   #336
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I am really blown away that anyone who has a basic level of understanding of technology still denies that this is possible. Not only is it possible, this is very easy to do. Build a backdoor, big deal. It's been happening for years.

It's like people who think flying in jet planes is our most advanced form of aviation. They have built far more advanced forms of air travel that blows what a plane can do out of the water. That they choose to use current methods doesn't mean anything in regards to what else has been created.

Like someone mentioned, I don't think this is right but use your brain for just a minute and realize that what they are doing here is not difficult and they have been doing it for years. I really think you have to be be some sort of government troll to make comments that this isn't true. I don't mean to offend anyone who thinks our devices aren't easily hacked, but come on - it's 2014, open your eyes.
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 12:19 PM   #337
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If you trust the government, you're stupid.
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 05:34 PM   #338
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Keep in mind, the biggest single purchase volume of NeXT stations ever shipped was to the CIA. Who knows what relationships are continuing after that deal went down.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenTrovato View Post
I am really blown away that anyone who has a basic level of understanding of technology still denies that this is possible. Not only is it possible, this is very easy to do. Build a backdoor, big deal. It's been happening for years.

It's like people who think flying in jet planes is our most advanced form of aviation. They have built far more advanced forms of air travel that blows what a plane can do out of the water. That they choose to use current methods doesn't mean anything in regards to what else has been created.

Like someone mentioned, I don't think this is right but use your brain for just a minute and realize that what they are doing here is not difficult and they have been doing it for years. I really think you have to be be some sort of government troll to make comments that this isn't true. I don't mean to offend anyone who thinks our devices aren't easily hacked, but come on - it's 2014, open your eyes.
You have that right. If you really want to dig further into the rabbit hole, many claim that technology developed by Nazi Germany during the last years of WWII is still classified. They were so short of production materials of traditional technologies, their only option was to innovate like crazy in an attempt to save the Reich. That failed.

One of the reasons was the scientists did not agree with the Reich and intentionally delayed some development so the Reich would fall. Read how Heisenberg himself intentionally delayed the Nazi Atomic Bomb project. Soon after the war, it was a huge treasure hunt finding designs and scientists that came up with creations a century ahead of its time.

Who knows what is crated away in warehouses outside DC to this day.
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Old Jan 4, 2014, 07:48 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by CFreymarc View Post
Keep in mind, the biggest single purchase volume of NeXT stations ever shipped was to the CIA. Who knows what relationships are continuing after that deal went down.

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You have that right. If you really want to dig further into the rabbit hole, many claim that technology developed by Nazi Germany during the last years of WWII is still classified. They were so short of production materials of traditional technologies, their only option was to innovate like crazy in an attempt to save the Reich. That failed.

One of the reasons was the scientists did not agree with the Reich and intentionally delayed some development so the Reich would fall. Read how Heisenberg himself intentionally delayed the Nazi Atomic Bomb project. Soon after the war, it was a huge treasure hunt finding designs and scientists that came up with creations a century ahead of its time.

Who knows what is crated away in warehouses outside DC to this day.
Men are on it. Top men.
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Old Jan 6, 2014, 12:53 PM   #340
unplugme71
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
They would be, which is exactly why you can't trust anyone besides yourself to secure your private data. If it goes on a proprietary operating system that is connected to the net, you simply have no way of knowing what might be happening to your data.

No reason to single Apple out though, the US government is the one forcing these corporations to spy on the people. They could get a secret court order to turn all Xbox one kinect sensors into terrorist monitoring devices and you wouldn't be the wiser.
Wouldn't doubt it. I wasn't trying to single out Apple. It can happen to any company but it is an Apple rumor site so...
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Old Jan 7, 2014, 04:35 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
It's been determined to be legal.
I'm not subbing to this thread because I could argue for hours on it, but I thought I should mention this: your statement isn't completely true.

It has both been determined legal and unconstitutional by New York courts. There's an excellent and lengthy opinion on the side of freedom that basically says that the judge could not use, as his North Star, a case which predates the rise of cellphones to judge this case. I think the fact that this has been found both ways sets up a likely Supreme Court ruling, but who's to say that they'll get it right this time? I've not been a fan of most of their rulings regarding the 4th.

While I'm at it I should note for the thread that our country was founded on principles and that, though they may be 200+ years old, their existence is paramount to what makes us who we are as a nation. People seeking to take such things from you wish to do so slowly. And people who don't pay attention, give them up. Innocence is also highly regarded in our country (or at least it was). That is how people can be trusted with guns, searches, speech, etc. We are innocent until proven guilty. The government is increasingly switching that and forcing the burden of proof onto the individual.

One of the most insightful responses to the "nothing to hide" argument in this thread was that if we aren't doing anything wrong, why can't we have privacy? Privacy is enshrined in the 4th Amendment and in our unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Sorry, I would have thought Patrick Henry's quote about liberty and death would still resound amongst Americans. But this dumb "nothing to hide" argument clearly shows that we're apparently not content with our own privacy and simultaneously so afraid of terrorism that we think the government deserves its privacy and ours as well. The capacity for doublethink in the human mind is astounding.

I should also mention that I find it funny when someone brings up free markets and someone else says that we've tried it. Yep, we did. It wasn't in 2008 or the 80s or the 50s as they imply. It was mostly pre-19th century and it was responsible for making us a superpower. But keep thinking that we have free markets and "evil" corporations. You'll never grow out of it (unless maybe you own a business ever). But that's how it is. It's always about oppressors vs the oppressed to liberals, civilization vs barbarism to conservatives, and freedom versus coercion for Libertarians. I'll always choose the latter scenario because I value freedom above all, but you're free to give it up. Just do me a favor, give up your own freedom and stop trying to legislate mine away.

That is all.
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Last edited by zync; Jan 7, 2014 at 05:00 AM.
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Old Feb 15, 2014, 02:07 AM   #342
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How about the gag order Tim spoke about on ABC?

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Originally Posted by peterdevries View Post
Show us all -please- where you got the knowledge that the NSA has approached Apple. I will eat all my previous words if you can provide one little piece of evidence or information that would indicate that this is the case.

edit to make myself absolutely clear: things like "it's obvious" or "it's logical" doesn't constitute evidence...
How about the gag order Tim spoke about on ABC?
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